Tetsuba 32 Posted November 28, 2023 I don't get all the hate on a single staredown while the same people guys like to remember fondly the good ol'days of Hakuho and Asahoryu, while both of them had their share of dame-oshi... At least a stare can't injure the opponent. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fashiritētā 169 Posted November 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, Tetsuba said: I don't get all the hate on a single staredown while the same people guys like to remember fondly the good ol'days of Hakuho and Asahoryu, while both of them had their share of dame-oshi... At least a stare can't injure the opponent. It’s not really hate, from what i have read, I believe the “haters” are referring to the fact that Hoshoryu is not yet a Yokozuna, like Hakuho and Asashoryu were. Basically seniority and rank give you staredown rights. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,340 Posted November 29, 2023 The Chris Sumo video on this today is pretty interesting—he's mostly translating reactions from around the sumo world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godango 956 Posted November 29, 2023 I maintain that I liked the staredown, but I also understand and appreciate the opposing viewpoint. Is there any reason Gonoyama was spared comment/rebuke at the time (I may have missed if he wasn't)? I understand YDC isn't interested in rank and filers so it's not worth a mention from them; it just interests me. If he (Gonoyama) had popped his fists down after 10 seconds of starting that would have been the end of it. Two to tango, etc. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,071 Posted November 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Fashiritētā said: 2 hours ago, Tetsuba said: I don't get all the hate on a single staredown while the same people guys like to remember fondly the good ol'days of Hakuho and Asahoryu, while both of them had their share of dame-oshi... At least a stare can't injure the opponent. It’s not really hate, from what i have read, I believe the “haters” are referring to the fact that Hoshoryu is not yet a Yokozuna, like Hakuho and Asashoryu were. Basically seniority and rank give you staredown rights. That and he was picking on a rank-and-filer who was his friend. It was basically schoolyard bully behaviour. Nothing wrong with having a go at the other best boxer in your school, but everything wrong having a go at the (relative) freshie. There is a time and place for niramiai, and that was not it. It would have gone over much better against e.g. Kirishima or Kotonowaka, and nearer to the end of the basho. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Koorifuu 886 Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) The YDC clearly didn't look at ~10 other tachiai from Hoshoryu this basho, since almost all of them were the same. 1) Mean stare while waiting for the opponent to crouch 2) Crouch 3) Wait for the opponent to put both fists on the ground 4) Charge after a quick tap on the ground Step #3 happened to take particularly long in one of the bouts and that drew special attention. Edited November 29, 2023 by Koorifuu 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetsuba 32 Posted November 29, 2023 22 minutes ago, Seiyashi said: That and he was picking on a rank-and-filer who was his friend. It was basically schoolyard bully behaviour. Nothing wrong with having a go at the other best boxer in your school, but everything wrong having a go at the (relative) freshie. There is a time and place for niramiai, and that was not it. It would have gone over much better against e.g. Kirishima or Kotonowaka, and nearer to the end of the basho. That is exactly the principle of kawaigari. I feel people who didn't like it feel the need to justify why they didn't like it, while it's just personnal preference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katooshu 3,137 Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) On 28/11/2023 at 17:21, Godango said: I maintain that I liked the staredown, but I also understand and appreciate the opposing viewpoint. Is there any reason Gonoyama was spared comment/rebuke at the time (I may have missed if he wasn't)? I understand YDC isn't interested in rank and filers so it's not worth a mention from them; it just interests me. If he (Gonoyama) had popped his fists down after 10 seconds of starting that would have been the end of it. Two to tango, etc. Gonoyama put his fist down on multiple occasions - to me that's a good faith measure inviting the other guy to put one of his down. If Hoshoryu had done that, I would have expected Gonoyama to follow with his second fist, still letting Hosh be the last one to put his hands down. I have seen this process so many times. By Hosh putting no hands down at all, he was the one most responsible for the situation in my view. Gonoyama is also a no-nonsense rikishi who doesn't usually get into games (he reminds me a lot of Hokutofuji), but stare-offs aren't so unusual for Hoshoryu. To me it just made Hosh look a bit silly - like he's trying too hard to be scary or something. It's true the likes of Hak and Asashoryu had stare offs, but it comes across as more fitting when you're a dai-yokozuna and not a one yusho ozeki who just went 8-7. That said, I don't mind a bit of attitude or swag from Hoshoryu, I just think in this case he went overboard. Edited November 30, 2023 by Katooshu 11 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,735 Posted November 29, 2023 The endless staredown didn't make any sense when it happened: endless cringe-inducing stare, not against an old rival, but against an M4. "Oh, they went to the same high school" or something: still doesn't make any sense. Did he do this when they met in Aki? It seemed random and arbitrary to do this. Was there too much time left before six o'clock, and NHK gave him the "draw it out" sign? 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dingo 1,161 Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) I agree with everyone who said that Hoshoryuu overdid it. @Churaumi put it the best. Hoshoryuu doesn't simply have enough ozeki/yokozuna/seniority credits to pull it off (yet). Edited November 29, 2023 by dingo 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RabidJohn 1,667 Posted November 29, 2023 I love a good stare-down and I miss its former prevalence The big problem with Hoshoryu's stare-down against Gonoyama is that the latter wasn't playing. It's fine when both rikishi take part and it becomes a contest of will, but Gonoyama did not engage, leaving Hoshoryu looking like a ridiculous time-waster. Ozeki in general should set a better example, and Hoshoryu in particular needs to learn to 'read the room' before any further shenanigans. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yorikiried by fate 1,989 Posted November 29, 2023 8 hours ago, Tetsuba said: […]I feel people who didn't like it feel the need to justify why they didn't like it, while it's just personnal preference. I would submit, not quite. It's more like after years and years of watching sumo, you can (almost subconsciously) tell when something's off. I didn't read much justification (or even "hate"; not you, I know) into the various posts here. Just people trying to explain why it felt off. And they did a good job at that IMHO. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tochinofuji 372 Posted November 29, 2023 16 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said: O'K, what can they do to him? Other than reprimanding him. 2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said: I would submit, not quite. It's more like after years and years of watching sumo, you can (almost subconsciously) tell when something's off. I didn't read much justification (or even "hate"; not you, I know) into the various posts here. Just people trying to explain why it felt off. And they did a good job at that IMHO. I think @yorikiried by fate has hit the nail on the head - this to me is a nice example of the Japanese idea of "reading the air" (空気を読む). It isn't so much what the YDC can "do" to Hoshoryu (as @Bunbukuchagama queries above), it's the fact they're acting as a bit of a barometer and giving the reading out loud. The fact that many, including the YDC and the Kyokai, seem to think Hoshoryu misread the air is telling. Getting a reputation as the guy that does so regularly can have significant social and professional consequences - you don't want to be that guy. Personally, I think it's a combination of when he went about it (at the tachiai itself, rather than one of the preemptive bows), his rank, his record, his opponent, and his youth that all came together to make things just feel off. This isn't to say that the YDC is always useful at actually reading the air, as they sometimes seem to be just blowing hot themselves. But I think in this case, they've done so well, and Hoshoryu would do well to listen. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ryuyama 0 Posted November 29, 2023 13 hours ago, Katooshu said: Gonoyama is also a no-nonsense rikishi who doesn't usually get into games (he reminds me a lot of Hokutofuji), but stare-offs aren't so unusual for Hoshoryu. Chris Sumo addresses this in his video on the staredown. Gonoyama was actually known for staredowns and other tactical tachiai in high school. Maybe he doesn't do it now, but he certainly knows its usefulness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites