#1HENKAFAN 40 Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) My banzuke now comes in a much swaggier dark mode edition (thank you @Chiyotasuke) Y1e Terunofuji 0-0-15 ─ Y1 Y2 O1w Kirishima 13-2 Y +0.5 O1 O2w Hoshoryu 10-5 +1 O2 O1e Takakeisho 9-6 -1.5 O3 S1e Daieisho 9-6 ─ S1 S2e Kotonowaka 11-4 JK +0.5 S2 S3 M3e Takayasu 10-5 ↑ K1 M1w Ura 8-7 ↑ K2 K3 S1w Wakamotoharu 6-9 ↓ M1 M8w Atamifuji 11-4 JK +7 K1e Abi 6-9 ↓ M2 M5w Midorifuji 9-6 +3 M4e Gonoyama 8-7 +1 M3 K1w Hokutofuji 5-10 ↓ M3w Tobizaru 7-8 -0.5 M4 M2e Shodai 6-9 -2.5 M4w Nishikigi 7-8 -0.5 M5 M10e Ryuden 10-5 +4.5 M7w Kinbozan 8-7 +1.5 M6 M1e Asanoyama 4-4-7 -5.5 M6e Shonannoumi 7-8 -1 M7 M14w Ichiyamamoto 11-4 JK +7 M7e Hokuseiho 7-8 -1 M8 M11w Hiradoumi 9-6 +3 M9w Mitakeumi 8-7 +0.5 M9 M2w Meisei 4-11 -7 M12w Tamawashi 9-6 +2.5 M10 M11e Sadanoumi 8-7 +0.5 M13w Tsurugisho 9-6 +2.5 M11 M12e Oho 8-7 +0.5 M6w Takanosho 5-6-4 -5.5 M12 M9e Myogiryu 6-9 -3.5 M8e Endo 5-10 -5 M13 M15w Churanoumi 9-6 +2 M5e Onosho 3-12 -9 M14 J1w Kotoshoho 12-3 ↑ M14e Tomokaze 7-8 -1 M15 M13e Takarafuji 6-9 -2.5 J5e Onosato 12-3 ↑ M16 J2e Bushozan 10-5 ↑ J2w Shimazuumi 9-6 ↑ M17 J1e Aoiyama 8-7 ↑ Edited December 18, 2023 by #1HENKAFAN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,102 Posted December 18, 2023 East Rank West Terunofuji Y1 Kirishima O1 Hoshoryu Takakeisho O2 Daieisho S1 Kotonowaka Ura K1 Takayasu Atamifuji M1 Gonoyama Midorifuji M2 Wakamotoharu Abi M3 Hokutofuji Tobizaru M4 Nishikigi Shodai M5 Ryuden Kinbozan M6 Ichiyamamoto Shonannoumi M7 Asanoyama Hokuseiho M8 Mitakeumi Hiradoumi M9 Tamawashi Sadanoumi M10 Tsurugisho Oho M11 Meisei Myogiryu M12 Takanosho Churanoumi M13 Endo Onosho M14 Kotoshoho Tomokaze M15 Bushozan Takarafuji M16 Shimazuumi Onosato M17 Aoiyama I count that as 40 points if Asashosakari's guess is the actual banzuke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shatsume 118 Posted December 18, 2023 Putting Ichiyamamoto above Shonannoumi is the only decision i'm currently feeling twitchy about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaito 296 Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) East Rank West Terunofuji Y1 Kirishima O1 Hoshoryu O2 Takakeisho Daieisho S1 Kotonowaka Takayasu K1 Ura Atamifuji M1 Wakamotoharu Midorifuji M2 Abi Gonoyama M3 Hokutofuji Tobizaru M4 Shodai Ryuden M5 Nishikigi Kinbozan M6 Asanoyama Shonannoumi M7 Ichiyamamoto Hokuseiho M8 Hiradoumi Mitakeumi M9 Meisei Tamawashi M10 Sadanoumi Tsurugisho M11 Oho Takanosho M12 Myogiryu Churanoumi M13 Endo Onosho M14 Kotoshoho Tomokaze M15 Onosato Takarafuji M16 Bushozan Shimazuumi M17 Aoiyama First draft had Abi ahead of Midorifuji. I kind of let myself be talked into changing it. It may make more sense, but the committee has shown nothing but disrespect for Midorifuji so far and this is another free opportunity to hate on him. Seeing people put Wakamotoharu ahead of Atamifuji now, I think that makes sense too as something the committee would prefer to do, and is in line with underdemoting Abi and Hokutofuji. Only other changes from first draft: Moved Ryuden from M4e to M5e, behind Tobizaru and Shodai. I never considered Nishikigi a part of that tier. Swapped Ichiyamamoto and Asanoyama. Edited December 18, 2023 by Kaito Fixed Takakeisho's placement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,088 Posted December 18, 2023 Terunofuji(0-0 Ye) Y Kirishima(13-2 Ow) O Hoshoryu(10-5 Ow) O Takakeisho(9-6 Oe) Daieisho(9-6 Se) S Kotonowaka(11-4 Se) Takayasu(10-5 M3e) K Ura(8-7 M1w) Wakamotoharu(6-9 Sw) M1 Atamifuji(11-4 M8w) Abi(6-9 Ke) M2 Midorifuji(9-6 M5w) Gonoyama(8-7 M4e) M3 Hokutofuji(5-10 Kw) Tobizaru(7-8 M3w) M4 Shodai(6-9 M2e) Ryuden(10-5 M10e) M5 Nishikigi(7-8 M4w) Kinbozan(8-7 M7w) M6 Shonannoumi(7-8 M6e) Asanoyama(4-4 M1e) M7 Ichiyamamoto(11-4 M14w) Hokuseiho(7-8 M7e) M8 Meisei(4-11 M2w) Mitakeumi(8-7 M9w) M9 Hiradoumi(9-6 M11w) Tamawashi(9-6 M12w) M10 Sadanoumi(8-7 M11e) Tsurugisho(9-6 M13w) M11 Oho(8-7 M12e) Takanosho(5-6 M6w) M12 Myogiryu(6-9 M9e) Churanoumi(9-6 M15w) M13 Endo(5-10 M8e) Onosho(3-12 M5e) M14 Kotoshoho(12-3 J1w) Tomokaze(7-8 M14e) M15 Onosato(12-3 J5e) Takarafuji(6-9 M13e) M16 Bushozan(10-5 J2e) Shimazuumi(9-6 J2w) M17 Aoiyama(8-7 J1e) I actually double checked my confirmation email against what I had on my spreadsheet before posting, and it indeed they were different, so I rearranged them to be what I submitted. The only change was the Meisei one alluded to earlier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,477 Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Kaito said: East Rank West Terunofuji Y1 Kirishima O1 Hoshoryu Takakeisho O2 I think this is identical to mine except for Churanoumi <-> Endo (and Takakeisho on the W side) Like @Asashosakari said, a lot of very similar guesses. Let's see what they do that none of us expected. Edited December 18, 2023 by Reonito Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,345 Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) By the looks of player's published results, I don't see a really easy high scoring result as suggested. The guesses seem pretty different. I have some questions as I'm not too good at this, yet I don't get this: The consensus that Daieishou is ahead of Kotonowaka. Why? Precedence? I was totally sure Kotonowaka's 11-4 JY (and dad presence..) trumps Daieishou's 9-6 easily. And why is everyone so lenient with a 4-11 Asanoyama? And if Asashosakari is right, which he usually is, I have 31 points. Great. Edited December 18, 2023 by Kintamayama 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
#1HENKAFAN 40 Posted December 18, 2023 6 minutes ago, Kintamayama said: By the looks of player's published results, I don't see a really easy high scoring result as suggested. The guesses seem pretty different. I have some questions as I'm not too good at this, yet I don't get this: Before the basho I was thinking the same but it seems like the strong players who have posted their lists do have pretty similar banzuke. Sumo Spiffy did have a very different banzuke from the ones posted here though and I'm sure a lot of players follow his usually sound advice. 7 minutes ago, Kintamayama said: The consensus that Daieishou is ahead of Kotonowaka. Why? Precedence? I was totally sure Kotonowaka's 11-4 JY (and dad presence..) trumps Daieishou's 9-6 easily. Kotonowaka was Sekiwake 2East so putting him behind Daieisho is still moving up a rank. If Kotonowaka was Sekiwake 1West then I would have more heavily considered putting him ahead of Daieisho. 10 minutes ago, Kintamayama said: And why is everyone so lenient with a 4-11 Asanoyama? And if Asashosakari is right, which he usually is, I have 31 points. Great. Shonannoumi and Ichiyamamoto only deserve to be 1 rank higher and half a rank higher respectively so it's not a huge amount of bias for Asanoyama. With stuff like this there is some more guessing involved so I'll also say that it just doesn't feel right to me putting Shonannoumi and Ichiyamamoto ahead of Asanoyama, for how much that's worth. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaito 296 Posted December 18, 2023 25 minutes ago, Reonito said: I think this is identical to mine except for Churanoumi <-> Endo (and Takakeisho on the W side) Like @Asashosakari said, a lot of very similar guesses. Let's see what they do that none of us expected. I don't actually have Takakeisho on the East. I just copied Seiyashi's formatting and swapped names around. I also pay so little attention to sanyaku in GTB that I don't have a place for it on my spreadsheet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,477 Posted December 18, 2023 19 minutes ago, Kintamayama said: I have some questions as I'm not too good at this, yet I don't get this: The consensus that Daieishou is ahead of Kotonowaka. Why? Precedence? I was totally sure Kotonowaka's 11-4 JY (and dad presence..) trumps Daieishou's 9-6 easily. And why is everyone so lenient with a 4-11 Asanoyama? And if Asashosakari is right, which he usually is, I have 31 points. Great. They used to routinely rearrange the sekiwake with winning records based on their win totals, like they still do with yokozuna/ozeki, but for some reason they stopped after 2011 or so unless the difference in records is extreme. The last instance was 2018, when S1w Mitakeumi's 13-2 Y was good enough to swap him with S1e Ichinojo (8-7). As for Asanoyama, M1's with big losing scores tend to get some leniency, and I think he may get some bonus points for entering at all. When the alternative was over-promoting Ichiyamamoto and under-demoting Shonannoumi, it just seemed neat to slot him in at 6w, which is in line with where 4-win M1's have tended to end up. Not everyone has gone with this though, and who knows if the banzuke committee will. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,477 Posted December 18, 2023 8 minutes ago, Kaito said: I don't actually have Takakeisho on the East. I just copied Seiyashi's formatting and swapped names around. I also pay so little attention to sanyaku in GTB that I don't have a place for it on my spreadsheet. I figured that was probably just a formatting thing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,102 Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Kaito said: I don't actually have Takakeisho on the East. I just copied Seiyashi's formatting and swapped names around. I also pay so little attention to sanyaku in GTB that I don't have a place for it on my spreadsheet. FWIW I buggered that because I was in a rush, but eh. It's a carelessness point. Edited December 18, 2023 by Seiyashi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yarimotsu 588 Posted December 19, 2023 This time I couldn't bring myself to think about it more deeply, just arranged the rikishi and moved on. So perhaps I've copied the method of the committee at least. Terunofuji Y1e Kirishima O1e Hoshoryu O1w Takakeisho O2w Daieisho S1e Kotonowaka S1w Takayasu K1e Ura K1w Atamifuji M1e Wakamotoharu M1w Abi M2e Midorifuji M2w Gonoyama M3e Shodai M3w Tobizaru M4e Hokutofuji M4w Ryuden M5e Nishikigi M5w Kinbozan M6e Asanoyama M6w Shonannoumi M7e Meisei M7w Hokuseiho M8e Mitakeumi M8w Hiradoumi M9e Ichiyamamoto M9w Sadanoumi M10e Tamawashi M10w Oho M11e Tsurugisho M11w Takanosho M12e Myogiryu M12w Churanoumi M13e Endo M13w Kotoshoho M14e Onosho M14w Tomokaze M15e Takarafuji M15w Bushozan M16e Shimazuumi M16w Onosato M17e Aoiyama M17w 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godango 1,001 Posted December 19, 2023 I'm a historically poor player, so you should all be feeling pretty good about yourselves: Yokozuna E: Terunofuji Y1e (0-0-15) Ozeki E: Kirishima O1w (13-2) Ozeki W: Hoshoryu O2w (10-5) Ozeki E2: Takakeisho O1e (9-6) Sekiwake E: Daieisho S1e (9-6) Sekiwake W: Kotonowaka S2e (11-4) Komusubi E: Takayasu M3e (10-5) Komusubi W: Ura M1w (8-7) Maegashira E: Atamifuji M8w (11-4) Maegashira W: Wakamotoharu S1w (6-9) Maegashira E2: Midorifuji M5w (9-6) Maegashira W2: Abi K1e (6-9) Maegashira E3: Gonoyama M4e (8-7) Maegashira W3: Tobizaru M3w (7-8) Maegashira E4: Hokutofuji K1w (5-10) Maegashira W4: Shodai M2e (6-9) Maegashira E5: Nishikigi M4w (7-8) Maegashira W5: Ryuden M10e (10-5) Maegashira E6: Kinbozan M7w (8-7) Maegashira W6: Shonannoumi M6e (7-8) Maegashira E7: Ichiyamamoto M14w (11-4) Maegashira W7: Asanoyama M1e (4-4-7) Maegashira E8: Hokuseiho M7e (7-8) Maegashira W8: Mitakeumi M9w (8-7) Maegashira E9: Hiradoumi M11w (9-6) Maegashira W9: Meisei M2w (4-11) Maegashira E10: Tamawashi M12w (9-6) Maegashira W10: Sadanoumi M11e (8-7) Maegashira E11: Oho M12e (8-7) Maegashira W11: Tsurugisho M13w (9-6) Maegashira E12: Kotoshoho J1w (12-3) Maegashira W12: Takanosho M6w (5-6-4) Maegashira E13: Myogiryu M9e (6-9) Maegashira W13: Churanoumi M15w (9-6) Maegashira E14: Endo M8e (5-10) Maegashira W14: Onosato J5e (12-3) Maegashira E15: Onosho M5e (3-12) Maegashira W15: Bushozan J2e (10-5) Maegashira E16: Tomokaze M14e (7-8) Maegashira W16: Takarafuji M13e (6-9) Maegashira E17: Shimazuumi J2w (9-6) Maegashira W17: Aoiyama J1e (8-7) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sumo Spiffy 569 Posted December 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Seiyashi said: Atamifuji M1 Gonoyama Yo, you gotta explain this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sumo Spiffy 569 Posted December 19, 2023 Terunofuji Y Kirishima O Hoshoryu O Takakeisho Daieisho S Kotonowaka Takayasu K Ura Atamifuji M1 Wakamotoharu Midorifuji M2 Abi Gonoyama M3 Tobizaru Shodai M4 Ryuden Hokutofuji M5 Nishikigi Kinbozan M6 Shonannoumi Asanoyama M7 Ichiyamamoto Hokuseiho M8 Mitakeumi Hiradoumi M9 Meisei Tamawashi M10 Sadanoumi Tsurugisho M11 Oho Takanosho M12 Myogiryu Churanoumi M13 Endo Onosho M14 Kotoshoho Tomokaze M15 Onosato Takarafuji M16 Bushozan Shimazuumi M17 Aoiyama I couldn't go through with putting Churanoumi behind Endo and Onosho. In retrospect, I should have given more consideration to the possibility of them swapping Chura and Endo only, but at the time I kept thinking they wouldn't bump Endo up without doing the same for Onosho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reonito 1,477 Posted December 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said: Hokutofuji M5 5-10 komusubi tend not to eat their full demotion, especially when this involves over-promoting or under-demoting rank-and-filers ahead of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sumo Spiffy 569 Posted December 19, 2023 25 minutes ago, Reonito said: 5-10 komusubi tend not to eat their full demotion, especially when this involves over-promoting or under-demoting rank-and-filers ahead of them. This got mentioned to me, and I did pretty much whiff on this possibility. There are occasional exceptions I miss despite them being pretty likely because the math usually leads to a solid outcome, and when I've strayed from it I've gotten myself in trouble more often than not. I'll probably need to get a little lucky on this one, though. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tigerboy1966 1,451 Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) Well it looks like I have given all of you a 2 point start by putting Kotonowaka at S1e. Edit: Except maybe Kintamayama. Edited December 20, 2023 by Tigerboy1966 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RaeucherLax 289 Posted December 20, 2023 40 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said: Well it looks like I have given all of you a 2 point start by putting Kotonowaka at S1e. Edit: Except maybe Kintamayama. And me of course ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wamahada 57 Posted December 20, 2023 1 hour ago, RaeucherLax said: And me of course ... … and me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,102 Posted December 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said: Well it looks like I have given all of you a 2 point start by putting Kotonowaka at S1e. I gave everyone a 1 point with Takakeishō at O2e. But it's ok, we can give more of a start as the banzuke goes... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,345 Posted December 20, 2023 6 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said: Well it looks like I have given all of you a 2 point start by putting Kotonowaka at S1e. Edit: Except maybe Kintamayama. We'll be laughing, you'll see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,275 Posted December 20, 2023 6 hours ago, Kintamayama said: We'll be laughing, you'll see. Sure thing, Zambara Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 739 Posted December 20, 2023 On 18/12/2023 at 22:22, Sumo Spiffy said: Terunofuji Y Kirishima O Hoshoryu O Takakeisho Daieisho S Kotonowaka Takayasu K Ura Atamifuji M1 Wakamotoharu Midorifuji M2 Abi Gonoyama M3 Tobizaru Shodai M4 Ryuden Hokutofuji M5 Nishikigi Kinbozan M6 Shonannoumi Asanoyama M7 Ichiyamamoto Hokuseiho M8 Mitakeumi Hiradoumi M9 Meisei Tamawashi M10 Sadanoumi Tsurugisho M11 Oho Takanosho M12 Myogiryu Churanoumi M13 Endo Onosho M14 Kotoshoho Tomokaze M15 Onosato Takarafuji M16 Bushozan Shimazuumi M17 Aoiyama Mine is quite similar with a few differences: - Ryuden below Hokutofuji and Nishikigi - Meisei ahead of Mitakeumi and Hiradoumi - Takarafuji above Onosato It's going to be very tight indeed (unless NSK manages to surprise all of us, as usual ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites