Aki 2023 discussion (results)

[Yamanashi 3,724]

1 hour ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

People always got something to say.

I found Chris' video both notable and not very surprising with regards to his statement that the active wrestlers showed more general understanding for what Takakeisho did. We talk about whether someone does "appropriate" sumo, but for nearly everyone, the only thing that actually impacts their careers is flat wins and losses. There may be questions as to whether a yusho in November will secure the yokozuna title given that he won this one with eleven wins and a playoff... sidestep, but losing means there's no rope discussion at all. If he felt not taking the kid head-on was his strongest strategic option, it feels difficult to criticize the choice.

By the way, I don't mean people shouldn't be disappointed. It was quite an anti-climactic ending. But it's frustrating to watch the wrestlers be put in a position where expectations of in-ring strategy and the consequences of victory and defeat work at such cross-purposes. If Takekeisho's consideration for yokozuna status wasn't so strongly based on winning the tournament, and only winning the tournament--that is, either he could still get the rope even if he lost the playoff, or such a tactic would absolutely sink his chance of reaching yokozuna next basho even if it worked--the critiques wouldn't feel so misplaced. But the man's got a career to think about, based on a body working on borrowed time, and in the end, people can't fairly expect him to treat risking that career for one playoff match with better sumo as a rational decision.

I know this discussion has been had a bazillion times, but two straight students didn't show up for their conferences, so I have nothing to do at the moment but get into my feels.

I've looked at the bout several times now, and it's not much of a henka (of course, Takakeisho hasn't practiced much).  Even the "Great Disinterested Stare" that true henka artists use was mitigated by the fact that takakeisho has that little arrogant look whenever he wins; it reminds me of a particular historical figure:

https://tenor.com/view/italy-cry-gif-22441271

 

[LLCoolKay 22]

Is it just me or has the general level of nastiness across the various sumo communities gotten much worse than usual? It seems far beyond the usual spirited debate lately.

I feel like there has been a general level of disrespect to Atamifuji for attaining such an impressive result in his second makuuchi basho. Very little acknowledgement of that at all behind the endless debate on whether Takakeisho is "worthy", whatever that really means. I was deeply impressed by his performance overall and look forward to seeing him compete in the future. Also love the super competitive scrum at the top. Every one of those guys could take it every time out. Or they could all break themselves on each other. It's exciting either way.

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Tabloid Nikkan Gendai also found an oyakata who has something to complain about for Atamifuji: his shikiri style, like a horse: "Though the opponent already has his hips down, he's so rude to kick the sand over and over again. Sooner or later he'll get cautioned." http://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/329640/2

Atamifuji's "hop" is so weird and since he's somewhat prone to matta, he makes everyone wait while shuffling and hopping yet again

[Seiyashi 4,071]

1 hour ago, LLCoolKay said:

Is it just me or has the general level of nastiness across the various sumo communities gotten much worse than usual? It seems far beyond the usual spirited debate lately.

I feel like there has been a general level of disrespect to Atamifuji for attaining such an impressive result in his second makuuchi basho. Very little acknowledgement of that at all behind the endless debate on whether Takakeisho is "worthy", whatever that really means. I was deeply impressed by his performance overall and look forward to seeing him compete in the future. Also love the super competitive scrum at the top. Every one of those guys could take it every time out. Or they could all break themselves on each other. It's exciting either way.

That's par for the course for any community that grows and isn't regulated. It's one of the reasons I value this forum so much - slower growth means it's easier to maintain a very unique culture. 

As for Atamifuji's result, it is impressive but it's just overshadowed. Not just by Takakeishō's behaviour, but by the fact Hakuōhō did something pretty similar one basho back in his debut. That, and Atamifuji doesn't quite have any hallmarks of greatness yet - he feels more like a Tokushōryū who lucked into the cup rather than someone whose time is surely coming, like Hakuōhō or Ōnosato. 

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

17 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Atamifuji doesn't quite have any hallmarks of greatness yet - he feels more like a Tokushōryū who lucked into the cup rather than someone whose time is surely coming, like Hakuōhō or Ōnosato. 

This is not a relevant comparison. Tokushoryu won the yusho at the age of 33 after a long career of bouncing between Makuuchi and Juryo, while Atamifuji is a 21-year old up-and-coming rikishi who will be mentioned along with Hakuoho and Onosato as one of future stars of ozumo.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

2 hours ago, LLCoolKay said:

Is it just me or has the general level of nastiness across the various sumo communities gotten much worse than usual? It seems far beyond the usual spirited debate lately.

I feel like there has been a general level of disrespect to Atamifuji for attaining such an impressive result in his second makuuchi basho. Very little acknowledgement of that at all behind the endless debate on whether Takakeisho is "worthy", whatever that really means. I was deeply impressed by his performance overall and look forward to seeing him compete in the future. Also love the super competitive scrum at the top. Every one of those guys could take it every time out. Or they could all break themselves on each other. It's exciting either way.

I don’t think so, the first time Terunofuji got injured there were a few commentators around the net that inferred delight or that he deserved it for henka ing Kotoshogiku once.

There’s just been so much churn in the upper ranks lately so nobody to really nitpick. Maybe Takakeisho can do the full heel turn and suggest the height of the dohyo to be raised…

[Seiyashi 4,071]

35 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

This is not a relevant comparison. Tokushoryu won the yusho at the age of 33 after a long career of bouncing between Makuuchi and Juryo, while Atamifuji is a 21-year old up-and-coming rikishi who will be mentioned along with Hakuoho and Onosato as one of future stars of ozumo.

I'll agree to disagree, but for someone who will be a rising star, there sure doesn't feel like that much hype over him. He won't be a Tokushōryū in ability - that's almost for sure - but his taking of the cup would have had Tokushōryū rather than Takahanada vibes for me. Especially since he didn't really give a good account of himself against the sanyaku this basho. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Old Shatterhand is dead 29]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

“That, and Atamifuji doesn't quite have any hallmarks of greatness yet - he feels more like a Tokushōryū who lucked into the cup rather than someone whose time is surely coming, like Hakuōhō or Ōnosato.”

 

These are exactly my thoughts too.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Old Shatterhand is dead

[Koorifuu 886]

8 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I'll agree to disagree, but for someone who will be a rising star, there sure doesn't feel like that much hype over him.

Comparing him with proven makushita tsukedashi is highly unfair, but as far as maezumo starters go, he definitely had the most hype out of anyone in the last bunch of years. It really only died down after his disastrous makuuchi debut.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

1 minute ago, Koorifuu said:

Comparing him with proven makushita tsukedashi is highly unfair, but as far as maezumo starters go, he definitely had the most hype out of anyone in the last bunch of years. It really only died down after his disastrous makuuchi debut.

Many just said "he sucks" and wrote him off after that. Let's see the reaction to the first Hakuoho/Onosato MK. Hell, Onosato was already a disappointment to many after he failed to steamroll the Makushita. 

[Hoshotakamoto 256]

9 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Comparing him with proven makushita tsukedashi is highly unfair, but as far as maezumo starters go, he definitely had the most hype out of anyone in the last bunch of years. 

Not Hokuseiho?

[Katooshu 3,135]

Atami made juryo at 19, was putting in numbers like 13-2 and 11-4 at 20, and then was a win away from a makuuchi yusho at 21, having only just turned that age a couple weeks earlier. That's very impressive and suggestive of a much different trajectory than someone like Tokushoryu, who 3 years into his career was 25 years old and in makushita trying for repromotion to sekitori.

Atami was hyped coming up as well, though it's hard for an 18-year-old turning pro in jonokuchi to compare in that regard to someone with a tsukedashi qualification or a famous family member. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Katooshu

[Reonito 1,335]

52 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I'll agree to disagree, but for someone who will be a rising star, there sure doesn't feel like that much hype over him. He won't be a Tokushōryū in ability - that's almost for sure - but his taking of the cup would have had Tokushōryū rather than Takahanada vibes for me. Especially since he didn't really give a good account of himself against the sanyaku this basho. 

He was a huge prospect who got Jk and Jd yusho in his first two tournaments, got to juryo without a single MK, and never really slowed down until getting pummeled in his makuuchi debut and then getting sick in the next basho in juryo. What has he done since then you ask? 8-7, 13-2, 11-4 Y, before his 11-4 D this basho. He's only 21, and has only fought in 18 basho. We don't know what he'll ultimately become, but the Tokushōryū comparison is completely unwarranted, and there's a lot of room between that example and someone as hyped as Takahanada.

[Katooshu 3,135]

Hakuoho's excellence is messing up some people's perspectives. 

Atami being a win away from the makuuchi yusho at barely 21 isn't much of a deal, because Hakuoho got just as many wins on his makuuchi debut at 19.

Onosato is a letdown for not going 7-0 and straight to juryo in 1 basho like Hakuoho did.

This type of standard is setting virtually everyone up to be a disappointment or just 'meh'. In reality, what Atami accomplished was very rare and he's performing way above most of his same age peers; meanwhile, Onosato's 2 basho to juryo was just as fast as anyone had ever done it only a few months before. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Katooshu

[Miyam 6]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Atamifuji doesn't quite have any hallmarks of greatness yet - he feels more like a Tokushōryū who lucked into the cup rather than someone whose time is surely coming, like Hakuōhō or Ōnosato. 

Where would you put Hokuseiho on the Atamifuji-Hakuoho scale?

[Sumo Spiffy 535]

9 minutes ago, Miyam said:

Where would you put Hokuseiho on the Atamifuji-Hakuoho scale?

Tokushoryu.

[Hoshotakamoto 256]

Put me down for Sekiwake Hakuoho, Ozeki Atamifuji, Ozeki Onosato, Yokozuna Hokuseiho.

Edit: add Gonoyama and Kinbozan on the Sekiwake line

Edited September 26, 2023 by Hoshotakamoto

[Sumo Spiffy 535]

1 minute ago, Hoshotakamoto said:

Put me down for Sekiwake Hakuoho, Ozeki Atamifuji, Ozeki Onosato, Yokozuna Hokuseiho.

Would you like our combo platter with Komusubi Takahashi and a large Coke?

[Hoshotakamoto 256]

1 minute ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Would you like our combo platter with Komusubi Takahashi and a large Coke?

Interesting question, maybe given Takerufuji and Takahashi the sekiwake nod as well? And a mountain dew code red.

[Reonito 1,335]

14 minutes ago, Hoshotakamoto said:

Interesting question, maybe given Takerufuji and Takahashi the sekiwake nod as well? And a mountain dew code red.

Sekiwake is not a hard rank to reach; on the current makuuchi banzuke, 18/42 have been at least sekiwake at one point, and that's including the very recent arrivals who haven't had the time to get there yet.

[Hoshotakamoto 256]

Just now, Reonito said:

Sekiwake is not a hard rank to reach; on the current makuuchi banzuke, 18/42 have been at least sekiwake at one point, and that's including the very recent arrivals who haven't had the time to get there yet.

It feels that way but then you go back and read the resumes of so many of these guys and realize they were the Takahashis of a small sliver in time at some point in the last 10-15 years. Like I pull out a random name like Churanoumi who I instinctively spend zero time thinking about during any given basho, and he had the 6-1 7-0 7-0 start, and the yusho from Ms5. Do I think he'll ever be a sekiwake? Probably not!

[Inside Sport Japan 760]

8 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I know this discussion has been had a bazillion times, but two straight students didn't show up for their conferences, so I have nothing to do at the moment but get into my feels.

Heterosexual henkas?

[Reonito 1,335]

26 minutes ago, Hoshotakamoto said:

It feels that way but then you go back and read the resumes of so many of these guys and realize they were the Takahashis of a small sliver in time at some point in the last 10-15 years. Like I pull out a random name like Churanoumi who I instinctively spend zero time thinking about during any given basho, and he had the 6-1 7-0 7-0 start, and the yusho from Ms5. Do I think he'll ever be a sekiwake? Probably not!

Okay, I did a quick search to shed some light on this. Since 1990, 255 rikishi had a makuuchi debut. There have been 67 sekiwake debuts in that same time frame. So if you make it to makuuchi, you have roughly a 1 in 4 shot of making it to sekiwake. 

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

45 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Okay, I did a quick search to shed some light on this. Since 1990, 255 rikishi had a makuuchi debut. There have been 67 sekiwake debuts in that same time frame. So if you make it to makuuchi, you have roughly a 1 in 4 shot of making it to sekiwake. 

Indeed. Achieving Sekiwake is an accomplishment to be sure. But the gap between making Sekiwake and making Ozeki is a cavernous one. 

[Gurowake 3,915]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

Okay, I did a quick search to shed some light on this. Since 1990, 255 rikishi had a makuuchi debut. There have been 67 sekiwake debuts in that same time frame. So if you make it to makuuchi, you have roughly a 1 in 4 shot of making it to sekiwake. 

You can very roughly say that starting at least with Makushita, and probably even Sandanme, if you hit a given rank, you have a 50% chance to hit the next rank.  So a Maegashira has a roughly 50% chance to get to Komusubi at some point, a 25% chance to get to Sekiwake, etc.  Obviously the numbers are not nearly that exact, but it works as a very rough estimate.  Obviously it falls apart for Jonidan since nearly all rikishi end up there at some point.