Aki 2023 discussion (results)

[Gurowake 4,012]

1 hour ago, Sakura said:

In fact Kirishima, who had nothing to fight for

Even if you disregard kensho, he's still pretty young - the extra bonus money would add up long-term.

[Sakura 1,480]

7 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Even if you disregard kensho, he's still pretty young - the extra bonus money would add up long-term.

I didn't consider financials at all, my mistake. I was just thinking of the potential dangers of fighting hard and getting injured when there is no competitive reason to do so.

[WAKATAKE 2,644]

10 hours ago, Barutokai said:

Atamifuji kinda robbed with only one Sanshō...

11-4 hardly warrants two sansho. Maybe if a shin-nyumaku is in the yusho race like Hakuoho was, but Atamifuji had already fallen to Juryo once.

 

Thanks Asashosakari

Edited September 25, 2023 by WAKATAKE

[Asashosakari 18,959]

4 hours ago, rhyen said:

Big fat kensho stack (almost 60 envelops, so ¥18M)

I think you'll want to check that math again.
 

3 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

11-4 hardly warrants two sansho. Maybe if a shin-nyumaku is in the yusho race. A query in the database gives four instances of an 11-4 seeing two sansho awarded. The most recent was in Aki 1968.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=195405#M

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=196007#M

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=196607#M

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=196809#M

I'm really not sure what you queried there to get those, and only those, four results.

S+K, S+G, K+G

(Triple-counts Onishiki, so 18 individual cases.)

Edited September 25, 2023 by Asashosakari

[hakutorizakura 609]

3 hours ago, rhyen said:

https://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_kim.aspx?r=12352
 

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/5001379/
 

after Aki 23, he has already used it 61 times. He has already overtaken the historic leader and is about to lap the top 2.

Midorifuji must be quite lonely in jungyo or other social events. He wouldn't have many friends, other rikishi must be really annoyed with him. This slippery midget who bites back at you and flings people around with a touch of a shoulder.... what an embarrassment to lose to him 

[Jakusotsu 5,873]

13 hours ago, Churaumi said:

However, Atamifuji needs to work on his tachiai, so he can react when opponents do the inevitable legal but cheap things.

He managed just fine against Abi the day before.

[WAKATAKE 2,644]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm really not sure what you queried there to get those, and only those, four results.

S+K, S+G, K+G

(Triple-counts Onishiki, so 18 individual cases.)

A very tired query and not really operational with how life has been operating 

[Akinomaki 40,038]

Everybody is criticizing Takakeisho for not fighting like an ozeki should, also joint shimpan department no.2 Fujishima in his column expressed his disappointment about the henka, and no applause was heard in the hall, at the same time everybody praises Atamifuji https://www.sanspo.com/article/20230925-LSIXEZDKEJM5VN3LFTCBB7KMHM/

Takakeisho today said he wanted the yusho no matter what, and yesterday: "It's bad, but I went with my rythm".

Hakkaku was disappointed, but thinks he exhausted his energy in the Daieisho bout. Sadogatake didn't want to get shown something like this.

https://www.zakzak.co.jp/article/20230925-4GRE4MCTWNNIDDE2F6TOESDV7I/

[WAKATAKE 2,644]

Wakanohana III gives his take on it and says he's speechless. However he does mention he's been there before as he henka'd Kotonishiki in their playoff, due to having a hurt hand. He also says that he went to apologize to Koto after the fact.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202309240001309.html

[Kaninoyama 1,711]

As unpopular as the Takakeisho yusho henka might have been, it's just a reflection of the fact that with Hakuho retired, he's now the mentally toughest and most ruthless, win-at-all-costs rikishi out there.

Hoshoryu is probably next on that list, but until another bigger, more dominant rikishi rises up to the top, the time for Takakeisho to add to his win total and take another shot at the rope is here and now, and he's not going to let disapproval of an unsavory henka here or harite there get in the way of another Emperor's Cup when the opportunity presents itself. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Kaninoyama

[Jakusotsu 5,873]

20 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Wakanohana III gives his take on it and says he's speechless.

By the way, what happened to his endearingly wrong yusho predictions? Did he stop altogether, or don't we simply care anymore?

[Seiyashi 4,072]

1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

By the way, what happened to his endearingly wrong yusho predictions? Did he stop altogether, or don't we simply care anymore?

He stopped altogether - or at least for enough basho that I didn't bother tracking any more, so I don't know if Abema put him back up to it again. My thread is still rotting somewhere in the recesses of this subforum.

[Tsubame 359]

15 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

But we don't need to have a Yokozuna on the banzuke (unlike the required 2 Ozeki/YO). 

And?

Just alone for marketing reason it is better to have one than not. The NSK is no charity...

[Leoben 126]

I'm curious to know if the Japanese media are talking about it at all, but to me it looked like there was an obvious matta in the final match. I was very surprised when they didn't call it.

[Sumo Spiffy 544]

4 hours ago, Leoben said:

I'm curious to know if the Japanese media are talking about it at all, but to me it looked like there was an obvious matta in the final match. I was very surprised when they didn't call it.

The lack of touchdown must have been obvious to everyone. My gf, who only really sees sumo through occasional fights we watch and the videos I make, immediately called a false start. I told her that the way they call it is generally about intent; Takakeisho shoved his fists at the ground, and Atamifuji reacted accordingly, so it was allowed because they both showed readiness to fight. But it's the kind of thing that also makes me want the rule to be called more strictly. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Sumo Spiffy

[Churaumi 728]

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

He managed just fine against Abi the day before.

True. He probably didn't expect that from an ozeki, and so he committed it all to the tachiai. Maybe it's a mental adjustment rather than a physical one.

[Bunbukuchagama 701]

Just now, Churaumi said:

True. He probably didn't expect that from an ozeki, and so he committed it all to the tachiai. Maybe it's a mental adjustment rather than a physical one.

Abi is a known henka specialist. He didn't expect an Ozeki henka. 

I hope he learned a valuable lesson: hinkaku is nothing, winning is everything. 

[Ripe 70]

7 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

As unpopular as the Takakeisho yusho henka might have been, it's just a reflection of the fact that with Hakuho retired, he's now the mentally toughest and most ruthless, win-at-all-costs rikishi out there.

Hoshoryu is probably next on that list, but until another bigger, more dominant rikishi rises up to the top, the time for Takakeisho to add to his win total and take another shot at the rope is here and now, and he's not going to let disapproval of an unsavory henka here or harite there get in the way of another Emperor's Cup when the opportunity presents itself. 

True, but he's certainly not Hakuho... or even a Yokozuna. And while YDC more or less defended him and his action, they also haven't say anything about his potential promotion following November basho.

[Akinomaki 40,038]

2 hours ago, Ripe said:

True, but he's certainly not Hakuho... or even a Yokozuna. And while YDC more or less defended him and his action, they also haven't say anything about his potential promotion following November basho.

They have

6 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Of course he mentioned the tsuna run: "If he fulfils a wide variety of conditions and the prerequisites, the expectation that he'll succeed to get to yokozuna gets high." http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2023092501011&g=spo

I say it again: after a yusho, an ozeki automatically is on a tsuna run, the YDC only debates when it's the next best result (runner-up, not just doten)

[Ack! 445]

On 24/09/2023 at 15:04, Bunbukuchagama said:

He likes 9-6s too. And 4-3s before that...

2022.05	Ms4e		4-3
2022.07	Ms2e		4-3
2022.09	Ms1w		4-3
2022.11	J13w		9-6
2023.01	J9e		9-6
2023.03	J5e		8-7
2023.05	J4w		9-6
2023.07	J2e		8-7
2023.09	J1e		8-7

Slow and steady wins the race!

[Ack! 445]

On 24/09/2023 at 08:49, Rocks said:

Think of this more as the HAH, the Half Ass Henka. Why did it work? Because Atamifuji had no choice but to go all out. He had already lost to Takakeisho and another of the 3 Sanyaku he faced. Only managing to beat Tobizaru  If you throw Asanoyama into that mix, who I'm sure everyone expects to be a Sanyaku mainstay, it's 3 out of 4. There's no way Atamifuji was feeling confident. 

That's an excellent point!  No one has said shame on Atamifuji for falling to an HAH.

[Churaumi 728]

12 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Abi is a known henka specialist. He didn't expect an Ozeki henka. 

I hope he learned a valuable lesson: hinkaku is nothing, winning is everything. 

Hinkaku matters a lot. It's why ozeki and yokozuna are revered. They can win AND do it through dominance, not tricks. If it becomes about winning any old way, might as well just bring on the cheerleaders and ring entering nümetal songs.

[Akinomaki 40,038]

Yamauchi is one if the few who don't condemn Takakeisho for his low level sumo.

Nishonoseki in his column writes that Atamifuji was the only one last basho who made an impression. Takakeisho with his henka won the fight, but lost a lot on his quest to aim for the above rank. And in direct contrast to Yamauchi: "Expectations for tsuna-tori won't arise." https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2023/09/26/kiji/20230926s00005000002000c.html

Rival columnist Miyagino shows compassion though: "I think that from the viewpoint of the fans it was regrettable, but in a basho aiming for a comeback after kyujo, I can understand that he wants to decide it as fast as possible. I'm hoping for a high level yusho next basho." http://hochi.news/articles/20230924-OHT1T51214.html?page=1

Takakeisho for his third try at yokozuna promotion, after going kyujo during the two first attempts: "Don't know if it'll be Third time lucky or What happens twice, happens thrice, but nothing comes of it if I give up" https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2023/09/26/kiji/20230926s00005000006000c.html

Edited September 26, 2023 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,038]

Tabloid Nikkan Gendai also found an oyakata who has something to complain about for Atamifuji: his shikiri style, like a horse: "Though the opponent already has his hips down, he's so rude to kick the sand over and over again. Sooner or later he'll get cautioned." http://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/329640/2

[Sumo Spiffy 544]

People always got something to say.

I found Chris' video both notable and not very surprising with regards to his statement that the active wrestlers showed more general understanding for what Takakeisho did. We talk about whether someone does "appropriate" sumo, but for nearly everyone, the only thing that actually impacts their careers is flat wins and losses. There may be questions as to whether a yusho in November will secure the yokozuna title given that he won this one with eleven wins and a playoff... sidestep, but losing means there's no rope discussion at all. If he felt not taking the kid head-on was his strongest strategic option, it feels difficult to criticize the choice.

By the way, I don't mean people shouldn't be disappointed. It was quite an anti-climactic ending. But it's frustrating to watch the wrestlers be put in a position where expectations of in-ring strategy and the consequences of victory and defeat work at such cross-purposes. If Takekeisho's consideration for yokozuna status wasn't so strongly based on winning the tournament, and only winning the tournament--that is, either he could still get the rope even if he lost the playoff, or such a tactic would absolutely sink his chance of reaching yokozuna next basho even if it worked--the critiques wouldn't feel so misplaced. But the man's got a career to think about, based on a body working on borrowed time, and in the end, people can't fairly expect him to treat risking that career for one playoff match with better sumo as a rational decision.

I know this discussion has been had a bazillion times, but two straight students didn't show up for their conferences, so I have nothing to do at the moment but get into my feels.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sumo Spiffy