Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Asapedroryu said: It's very easy to say some rule is unfair, doesn't make sense or any other sort of negative comment. But it's not that easy to offer an alternative rule to replace that one. On this discussion no one has offered an alternative rule to put in place (tossing a coin is obviously not a better one), so until then that makes me believe this is actually the best rule we can have for this situation. I am going to argue that a coin toss (or a more elegant form of random decision if there is one available) is definitely a better alternative; other games use it, actually. It is easier to accept that you got unlucky rather than that you were doomed in advance because rules put you in an inferior position by default. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetsuba 33 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, Oortael said: Yes, I'm a member of InfoSumo like most French speaking players. Rejoins nous du coté lumineux Athena ! I know you're one of us ! Well, thanks sir. But I'm past my SB prime apparently, as I havent scored meaningful points since last Aki. oupsie, j'ai vu ton invitation mais j'ai déjà été recruté par Sakura Merci quand même, bonne chance à InfoSumo! Edited July 23, 2023 by Tetsuba Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaito 292 Posted July 23, 2023 Before I inevitably fall on my face and take the Bench jun-yusho tonight, can I complain about the yusho tiebreaker? It's extremely correlated with the last day's normal bench results. I'm sure it works fine when the leaders are going into the day tied, competing in different matches, but if I'm a win ahead going into the last day, why am I basically in a 50/50 situation against the chaser I've been scheduled against? Total Points over the whole basho or MCP rank would be more fair, surely. If I'm losing that, I could at least understand why the chaser takes the yusho upon getting level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,969 Posted July 23, 2023 Seconded. I always thought it unfair for the leader having a substantial disadvantage when they lose their final bout. I guess the reason is the same as mentioned above by Jejima: the daily gyoji had to be able to do it manually and quickly in the pre-automation days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Kaito said: Before I inevitably fall on my face and take the Bench jun-yusho tonight, can I complain about the yusho tiebreaker? It's extremely correlated with the last day's normal bench results. I'm sure it works fine when the leaders are going into the day tied, competing in different matches, but if I'm a win ahead going into the last day, why am I basically in a 50/50 situation against the chaser I've been scheduled against? Total Points over the whole basho or MCP rank would be more fair, surely. If I'm losing that, I could at least understand why the chaser takes the yusho upon getting level. Well, I won my yusho tie-breaker, so, I am supposed to champion maintaining the glorious status quo, I guess. Still, you are not advocating for giving yusho to a higher-ranked rikishi, are you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jejima 1,384 Posted July 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said: Seconded. I always thought it unfair for the leader having a substantial disadvantage when they lose their final bout. I guess the reason is the same as mentioned above by Jejima: the daily gyoji had to be able to do it manually and quickly in the pre-automation days. The reason is for the yusho to be decided on the final day - as with Ozumo. There needed to be a different method to decide play-off bouts, in case two players end up meeting twice on senshuraku, in order to add some suspense. This method does that. Not sure how it gives the leader the disadvantage. When day 15 is over, both (or more) players are equal leaders. The player ending strong then goes into the play-off situation strong. Which is what happens in sport? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Jejima said: The reason is for the yusho to be decided on the final day - as with Ozumo. There needed to be a different method to decide play-off bouts, in case two players end up meeting twice on senshuraku, in order to add some suspense. This method does that. Not sure how it gives the leader the disadvantage. When day 15 is over, both (or more) players are equal leaders. The player ending strong then goes into the play-off situation strong. Which is what happens in sport? I think the problem is: losing the last match usually means a high probability of losing the play-off to its winner (should he end up being a part of said play-off). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jejima 1,384 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: I think the problem is: losing the last match usually means a high probability of losing the play-off to its winner (should he end up being a part of said play-off). As in ozumo? The rules are known. To avoid such a problem, best not to lose that final match, so no need for a playoff - as in ozumo. To be less glib. Ozumo only counts what happens on the final day of a basho. Perhaps a rikishi performed really well at the start of the basho. Picked up an injury late on and limped into the final day, loses and then is tied for the yusho. No one is going to say, well he had a great first week, he deserves the yusho. Instead, there will be the play-off with the rikishi who had a good second week and caught up with the early leader. I would suggest that such a rikishi has the momentum going into the play-off. Edited July 23, 2023 by Jejima Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Jejima said: As in ozumo? The rules are known. To avoid such a problem, best not to lose that final match, so no need for a playoff - as in ozumo. To be less glib. Ozumo only counts what happens on the final day of a basho. Perhaps a rikishi performed really well at the start of the basho. Picked up an injury late on and limped into the final day, loses and then is tied for the yusho. No one is going to say, well he had a great first week, he deserves the yusho. Instead, there will be the play-off with the rikishi who had a good second week and caught up with the early leader. I would suggest that such a rikishi has the momentum going into the play-off. Well, this is not the rule I am complaining about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jejima 1,384 Posted July 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: Well, this is not the rule I am complaining about. 24 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: I think the problem is: losing the last match usually means a high probability of losing the play-off to its winner (should he end up being a part of said play-off). I think I might be missing something....? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 Just now, Jejima said: I think I might be missing something....? I was merely explaining Kaito's point (I think). On the other hand: abolish the Doitsuyama rule! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 516 Posted July 23, 2023 30 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: On the other hand: abolish the Doitsuyama rule! Seems you are a person who always must have the final word.... This 5th or 6th TB rule was implemented some 25 years ago, no one has ever complained and Jejima has clearly stated that there will be no change. So stop your whining and complaining, please! That gets on my nerves. Ganzohnesushi 1 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pandaazuma 1,310 Posted July 23, 2023 There has to be a final tie-breaker so why not base it on rank? In Ozumo, rank is everything, so it actually makes sense. The alternative is a coin toss or who entered earliest...and those two really are bullshit rules. Gaining high rank is something that requires skill so it has some meaning in the long view. The best way to overcome the dreaded Doitsuyama Rule is to attain a high rank asap! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,969 Posted July 23, 2023 Out of likes for today . . . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaito 292 Posted July 23, 2023 Things really fell into place for me tonight. 4 yusho, with some small change, should be over 75 Masters points. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganzohnesushi 516 Posted July 23, 2023 Congratulations! 4 Yusho in just one Basho doesn't happen too often. Very impressive. Ganzohnesushi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pandaazuma 1,310 Posted July 23, 2023 9 minutes ago, Kaito said: Things really fell into place for me tonight. 4 yusho, with some small change, should be over 75 Masters points. That's hard to do. Well done, sir. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Athenayama 1,041 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) I think I have @Kaito in my Metasumo picks, haven't I ? Thanks for your points ! And congrats, of course ! Edited July 23, 2023 by Athenayama 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jejima 1,384 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) During my days teaching English at a Junior High School in Japan, I arranged 'Christmas parties' for my classes, as part of the 'cultural exchange' that was part of my job description. These included typical UK party games, that they did not know (Musical Chairs, Musical Bumps etc). One such game was 'Pass-the-parcel'. The end of this game results in one of the players unwrapping the final wrapper of a parcel, and getting the gift inside. It was an ironic gift for teenagers - a small, cute teddy bear of little value. Anyway, the children knew the rules before the game, and I had explained that this was a traditional British game that I had played as a youngster, and was probably a game that been played for over a hundred years... Imagine my surprise when later that day, during home period, I saw one of the classes playing 'jankenpon' (Rock, Scissors, Paper) for the same teddy bear from before. I asked what was happening, and the teacher explained that the class had decided that it had been unfair for the teddy bear to be won by someone via the rules of 'pass-the-parcel', so they had decided to re-award it using the much fairer system of 'jankenpon'. Edited July 23, 2023 by Jejima 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Athenayama 1,041 Posted July 23, 2023 Speaking of which, does anybody know if the tie breaker "paper/rock/cissors" has ever been actually used for Hoshitori's game? I'm curious to know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakura 1,489 Posted July 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Pandaazuma said: There has to be a final tie-breaker so why not base it on rank? In Ozumo, rank is everything, so it actually makes sense. The alternative is a coin toss or who entered earliest...and those two really are bullshit rules. Gaining high rank is something that requires skill so it has some meaning in the long view. The best way to overcome the dreaded Doitsuyama Rule is to attain a high rank asap! I've only faced the Doitsuyama rule once. Losing, I think 14-14 to chischafuwaku who ended at 8-7 and I ended at 7-8. Truly Awful, but I don't think it should be changed. Ozumo is the banzuke. Each basho really just determines the next banzuke, everything else including the yusho is extra. So, I think our banzuke should be everything too. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunbukuchagama 723 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) Speaking of tie-breakers: an epic 6-player showdown in BS makushita was narrowly averted (the leader won his last bout). That would have been a lot of fun! Edited July 23, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,969 Posted July 23, 2023 44 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said: Speaking of tie-breakers: an epic 6-player showdown in BS makushita was narrowly overted (the leader won his last bout). That would have been a lot of fun! Scroll down: http://benchsumo.sumogames.de/Results.aspx?B=81&D=15 The only other yusho with more than six contenders (three times) was this: http://benchsumo.sumogames.de/Results.aspx?B=96&D=15 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites