Games Talk - Nagoya 2023

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

By the way, I invite you to make a guess before clicking the spoiler button.

So far, there have been 120,294 bouts in the history of Bench Sumo. How many of those have been decided by Doitsuyama Rule?

  Reveal hidden contents

78 - that's less than 0.065% - not even a breeze in a teacup.

 

I think I've seen the stats once; should be about 2 dozen, I would guess?

This doesn't defeat my argument at all, an unfair rule remains unfair even if it's invoked very rarely.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama

[Rocks 1,807]

On 20/07/2023 at 05:11, Kotononami said:

The toughest way to lose Bout 44 - Kotononami (M14W) 10 [8-4] Makiotoshi Kaito (M1W) 10 [9-3] Kaito wins by virtue of being the higher ranked rikishi. Kotononami (M14W) 10 (Submitted by Kotononami at 20 Jul, 2023 03:26 AM JST) 4 Hokuseiho [-] 3 Asanoyama [+] 3 Kirishima [+] 2 Hakuoho [+] 2 Gonoyama [+] Bench: Daieisho [-] Kotonowaka [+] Endo [-] Takayasu [-] Terunofuji [-] - vs - Kaito (M1W) 10 (Submitted by Kaito at 20 Jul, 2023 05:26 AM JST) 4 Hoshoryu [-] 3 Gonoyama [+] 3 Hakuoho [+] 2 Asanoyama [+] 2 Kirishima [+] Bench: Endo [-] Kotonowaka [+] Kotoshoho [-] Takayasu [-] Terunofuji [-]

This conversation is silly. Length of time has nothing to do with Banzuke rank other than it's going to take you at least 3 or 4 basho to get to the top  division. 

That said, and I'm probably just not well versed enough on the tiebreaker rules, but shouldn't Kaito have won on having the lower ranked winner at 3?

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

16 minutes ago, Rocks said:

That said, and I'm probably just not well versed enough on the tiebreaker rules, but shouldn't Kaito have won on having the lower ranked winner at 3?

If still no winner can be determined, then the bench rikishi with the lowest ranked rikishi (from the real Banzuke) with a win that day anywhere in his squad (in the 'team', or on the 'bench') will be awarded the win for that day. In the case that both bench rikishi have the same lowest ranked 'winning rikishi' in their squads, then the second lowest ranked 'winning rikishi' etc, will be used.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama

[Oortael 151]

On 20/07/2023 at 11:11, Kotononami said:

The toughest way to lose Bout 44 - Kotononami (M14W) 10 [8-4] Makiotoshi Kaito (M1W) 10 [9-3] Kaito wins by virtue of being the higher ranked rikishi. Kotononami (M14W) 10 (Submitted by Kotononami at 20 Jul, 2023 03:26 AM JST) 4 Hokuseiho [-] 3 Asanoyama [+] 3 Kirishima [+] 2 Hakuoho [+] 2 Gonoyama [+] Bench: Daieisho [-] Kotonowaka [+] Endo [-] Takayasu [-] Terunofuji [-] - vs - Kaito (M1W) 10 (Submitted by Kaito at 20 Jul, 2023 05:26 AM JST) 4 Hoshoryu [-] 3 Gonoyama [+] 3 Hakuoho [+] 2 Asanoyama [+] 2 Kirishima [+] Bench: Endo [-] Kotonowaka [+] Kotoshoho [-] Takayasu [-] Terunofuji [-]

Unlucky indeed.

I tend to focus on the fact that, if I didnt lose 14-14 with a GBL, that means I didnt pick well enough that day (or my 10-man lineup wasnt good enough). Cant count on luck to climb the banzuke.

To mis-quote Sir Sean Connery : "Losers* always whine about their luck. Winners go home and kiss the prom queen win the yusho"

* no ill intentions towards anyone here

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

33 minutes ago, Oortael said:

Unlucky indeed.

I tend to focus on the fact that, if I didnt lose 14-14 with a GBL, that means I didnt pick well enough that day (or my 10-man lineup wasnt good enough). Cant count on luck to climb the banzuke.

To mis-quote Sir Sean Connery : "Losers* always whine about their luck. Winners go home and kiss the prom queen win the yusho"

* no ill intentions towards anyone here

100% this!!

Oortael...I love the cut of your jib! Would you like to join Mukade Beya?? I don't know if you are already affiliated in Bench...but the Centipedes are always looking for right-thinking men like yourself. Please let me know so I can inform Takanorappa.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

Ah... apologies. I see you are already a member of the Sakura ichimon.

They are lucky to have you!

[Ganzohnesushi 507]

Weird Basho results in Odd Sumo. Currently more than a dozen players above 50 points. Nagoya rewards gamblers waiting for many surprises and upsets with high scores.

Ganzohnesushi 

[Athenayama 953]

28 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

Ah... apologies. I see you are already a member of the Sakura ichimon.

They are lucky to have you!

Oortael is actually member of Info-Sumo but the colors look alike.

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

9 minutes ago, Athenayama said:

Oortael is actually member of Info-Sumo but the colors look alike.

Yes very sorry. Age isn't helping my eyesight.

Nonetheless, I am a big fan of Oortael going forward.  :)

[Oortael 151]

58 minutes ago, Athenayama said:

Oortael is actually member of Info-Sumo but the colors look alike.

Yes, I'm a member of InfoSumo like most French speaking players.
Rejoins nous du coté lumineux Athena ! I know you're one of us !

 

49 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

Nonetheless, I am a big fan of Oortael going forward.  :)

Well, thanks sir. But I'm past my SB prime apparently, as I havent scored meaningful points since last Aki.

[Athenayama 953]

@Oortael Pendant mes quelques années de participation à BS seule Sakura m'a contacté et m'a invité à faire partie de leur Ichimon (dès mon premier tournoi en fait, puis encore ensuite). Comment pourrais-je les quitter maintenant? Surtout que nous devenons une Ichimon qui peut prétendre désormais à la victoire bien plus souvent.

Cela dit, ta proposition me touche.  Good luck to Info-Sumo and to everyone !

(Google translate is your friend, it's quite easy to translate this one).

[Jejima 1,314]

18 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

 

Imagine if ozumo worked the same way and every monoii was decided based on rank - would you like that?

 

Bench Sumo is based on Ozumo, and there was once a time when close bouts where no winner could be decided, was awarded to the higher ranked (if I recall correctly). Or was it the yusho? If I could work out what the 'a' and 'd' means in some of the earlier banzukes in Sumo Reference, I would be able to give a better answer.

Anyway, there was a time in Ozumo, when being the higher ranked sometimes helped you win, in close situations.

 

[Sakura 1,472]

17 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Most of the gamers here have been playing against each other for decades. We all respect each other and all know that anyone is capable of winning the Masters or the World Championship.

Even I managed to win a Green Mawashi, so that's saying something.

[Athenayama 953]

5 minutes ago, Sakura said:

Even I managed to win a Green Mawashi, so that's saying something.

Don't be too modest.

[Jejima 1,314]

9 hours ago, Rocks said:

That said, and I'm probably just not well versed enough on the tiebreaker rules, but shouldn't Kaito have won on having the lower ranked winner at 3?

When I originally thought up the rules, about a quarter of a century ago, I had this sort of thing in mind for the tiebreaker. *But* back then I had no idea that the game would get automated, and the tiebreaker rules were already very long, and I was worried that I would scare players off by making them longer. I reasoned that the situation would not happen often, and that it would be fine as described, at ;least whilst the game was being trialled.

Some time after (about 15-20 years ago?) I suggested to the original automation wizard (Kofuji), and possibly to the mailing list too, about changing the rule to be like the above suggestion. But, I recall people liked it happening now and again. AND Kofuji said that he didn't have time to adjust the automation - so couldn't be done anyway.

I like it now, as it is a quirk of Bench Sumo. I also like its nickname, as it remembers Doitsuyama, the earliest dominating player of the game.

If I remember correctly, it isn't the rarest tore-breaker. This basho I won on the better 4 point rikishi - which might well be the first time that I have won on that tie-breaker. It made me rather happy!

[Balon 4]

Haven't played all these sumo games as long as the veterans but I will say that Bench Sumo is one of my favorites, and SUmo Game too. I think I enjoy their core concepts the most, since you just pick 10 guys and it tests your predicting "skill" and some luck

[Pandaazuma 1,310]

1 minute ago, Balon said:

Haven't played all these sumo games as long as the veterans but I will say that Bench Sumo is one of my favorites, and SUmo Game too. I think I enjoy their core concepts the most, since you just pick 10 guys and it tests your predicting "skill" and some luck

I see you are superb at Toto too.

[Sakura 1,472]

5 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

 

@Sakura You are a fantastic gamer. I am in envy of your GTB skills. And Bench too..if I see I am fighting you the next day, I don't drink any alcohol the night before! ;) (Sorry this is an obscure reference to Asashoryu that not many people will understand)

Thank you. Coming from you, this is a big compliment.

I have a new job now and I can't put in as much thought as I used to and my results have suffered. I have to work out how to do my new job and put in the thought.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

5 hours ago, Oortael said:

Well, thanks sir. But I'm past my SB prime apparently, as I havent scored meaningful points since last Aki.

I fully expect you ganbarize in Tipspiel tomorrow!

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

On 20/07/2023 at 11:11, Kotononami said:

Bout 44 - Kotononami (M14W) 10 [8-4] Makiotoshi Kaito (M1W) 10 [9-3] Kaito wins by virtue of being the higher ranked rikishi.

 

...and to give @Bunbukuchagama some final food for thought:
Kotononami played Bench Sumo since 2004 for 106 basho
Kaito played Bench Sumo since 2020 for 21 basho

(...thanks to @Ganzohnesushi for pointing it out...)

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

9 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Kotononami played Bench Sumo since 2004 for 106 basho
Kaito played Bench Sumo since 2020 for 21 basho

Both numbers seem equally distant for someone on their 2nd basho. 

[Kaito 275]

56 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

...and to give @Bunbukuchagama some final food for thought:
Kotononami played Bench Sumo since 2004 for 106 basho
Kaito played Bench Sumo since 2020 for 21 basho

(...thanks to @Ganzohnesushi for pointing it out...)

I'm also 3-0 already in Doitsuyama matches, which I think ties me for most wins by the rule. The first 2 happened in the same basho! (Kyushu '21)

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Keep at it, and we might call it the Kaito Rule some day.

[Kotononami 86]

Many reactions after my initial post.

First of all , I have no problems with the Doitsuyama rule , it's part of the game , it's part of the fun.

I was just a little bit sad at the moment because I was in good position to try to get the Yusho. It rarely happened in this game , only one Yushô 15 years ago in my memory.

But a few minutes later it was over. As a veteran player ,  I know since many years that winning or losing is largely part of luck. Some days you have , some others you don't. It helps to keep a good dose of humility. For my part I always tried to play seriously without taking myself seriously. Sometimes it works , most of the time it doesn't work. The most important is to still have some fun after all these years.

We owe it to the people who run the games for so many years.

A big thanks to all of them once again.

 

 

[Asapedroryu 227]

From someone that doesn't play this game but was bored enough to read the full discussion...

It's very easy to say some rule is unfair, doesn't make sense or any other sort of negative comment. But it's not that easy to offer an alternative rule to replace that one. On this discussion no one has offered an alternative rule to put in place (tossing a coin is obviously not a better one), so until then that makes me believe this is actually the best rule we can have for this situation.