Akinomaki

Kyushu 2023 discussion (results)

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On 26/11/2023 at 21:01, Bunbukuchagama said:

This was the end of multiplication of sekiwake

An Excessive of Sekiwake

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Tamawashi was:

S: 8 times

K: 6 times

M1: 5 times
M2: 4 times

M3: 8 times
M4: 6 times

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I remembered that I sorta said I would make the Kyokai's job a bit easier by quantifying Takakeisho's sumo this basho. So by my entirely unscientific method, Takakeisho this basho performed a total of 68 seconds of forward moving sumo and 19 seconds of backwards moving sumo. Sounds like a pretty good yokozuna record doesn't it? Too bad that train has not only gone, but derailed, removed from the crash site and sold for scrap metal. Until the next tsuna run, if it ever comes again. 

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On 28/11/2023 at 03:42, WAKATAKE said:

Tamawashi at 1568 consecutive matches, with the record at 1630. Barring injury withdrawal, falling to makushita or retirement, he will break the record on day 3 of Aki 2024

Except that Aobajo's 1630 were actually consecutive, unlike Tamawashi who has sat out because of COVID protocols. Whatever the JSA have said it's still a massive asterisk for me. 

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3 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Except that Aobajo's 1630 were actually consecutive, unlike Tamawashi who has sat out because of COVID protocols. Whatever the JSA have said it's still a massive asterisk for me. 

For me it's not so big. Everyone sat out in the canceled CoViD basho....this time just Tamawashi was forced to do it :D. Of course it's not the same, but still....

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59 minutes ago, Seregost said:

For me it's not so big. Everyone sat out in the canceled CoViD basho....this time just Tamawashi was forced to do it :D. Of course it's not the same, but still....

For me the fact that the tournament went ahead and he withdrew from it is a fundamental difference. I just find it difficult to pretend that the fusen on Day 13 in July 2022 didn't happen. 

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4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Whatever the JSA have said it's still a massive asterisk for me. 

It's an asterisk, sure, but a 'massive' one? I don't believe so. 

Being forced to sit out because of an exceptional and temporary rule change is not the same as voluntarily going kyujo due to injury or ill-health.

Tamawashi has never gone kyujo, so his run stands, IMO.

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Maybe if Tamawashi does break the record he can have "most consecutive bouts" and Aobajo can keep "most matches without a withdrawal for any reason." 

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But he didn't withdraw; they refused to allow him on the dohyo. IMHO, the cancelled tournaments of March 2011 and May 2020 are exactly the correct comparison here.

Edited by Asashosakari
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@WAKATAKE's Top 10 Sumo Records made me realize that Kotoshoho has already won his 3rd Juryo Yusho. Reminds me a bit of kinboshi machines like Akinoshima and Tochinonada who only excelled at ranks below their ability.

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9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

@WAKATAKE's Top 10 Sumo Records made me realize that Kotoshoho has already won his 3rd Juryo Yusho. Reminds me a bit of kinboshi machines like Akinoshima and Tochinonada who only excelled at ranks below their ability.

He's a confusing fellow -- I don't know where his rank should be.  In Makuuchi he's 94-116-15, with three kyujo and some disastrous strings of losses.  In Juryo he's 82-53 with 3 Yusho and no kyujo.  He certainly has talent (15 basho to reach Makuuchi); is his problem physical or mental?

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4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

He's a confusing fellow -- I don't know where his rank should be.  In Makuuchi he's 94-116-15, with three kyujo and some disastrous strings of losses.  In Juryo he's 82-53 with 3 Yusho and no kyujo.  He certainly has talent (15 basho to reach Makuuchi); is his problem physical or mental?

I used to get frustated watching him because he would show out for a few fights and then get saddled with some inexplicable losses. His JY in makuuchi showed what he could do when he got his head straight, which included not being able to hang at the top of the ladder. The start of his next basho at M5 was a disaster, but the level of competition spiked considerably. Then he came back with a few nice wins (against struggling guys, granted), just about held rank, got his head kicked in for a week-plus again at the start of May, then pulled out with the knee injury. And the knee is still impacting him to some degree.

This is a long-winded way of saying I think his issues are mainly physical at this point, but that's not limited to his knee injury. He's built closer to Kotonowaka, but as a wrestler he's more like Kotoeko—competitive but without the juice to stick too high up the ranks.

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3 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

He's built closer to Kotonowaka, but as a wrestler he's more like Kotoeko—competitive but without the juice to stick too high up the ranks.

If only he had the persistency like Kotoeko...

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2 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

If only he had the persistency like Kotoeko...

It's like he's not quite big enough to powerbomb everyone, but also a little too fluffy to wear opponents out on the hamster wheel.

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3 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I used to get frustated watching him because he would show out for a few fights and then get saddled with some inexplicable losses. His JY in makuuchi showed what he could do when he got his head straight, which included not being able to hang at the top of the ladder. The start of his next basho at M5 was a disaster, but the level of competition spiked considerably. Then he came back with a few nice wins (against struggling guys, granted), just about held rank, got his head kicked in for a week-plus again at the start of May, then pulled out with the knee injury. And the knee is still impacting him to some degree.

This is a long-winded way of saying I think his issues are mainly physical at this point, but that's not limited to his knee injury. He's built closer to Kotonowaka, but as a wrestler he's more like Kotoeko—competitive but without the juice to stick too high up the ranks.

I sometimes entertain myself by using the "rubber band"® theory to assess rikishi quality.  For each rikishi there is a zero point which is his natural state; if he gets a little bit above that level he gets a 7-8 and gets knocked down -- a little low and he gets an 8-7 to return to equilibrium.  A disastrous basho (say, due to injury) acts like a large stretch of the rubber band, and he gets double digits to return to his natural rank.  Of course, the zero point drops as the rikishi declines with age (except for the Y/O -- a Yokozuna is unbreakable).  I first thought of this idea when looking through the career of Takamiyama.

I estimate Kotoshoho's zero point at M12.

EDIT: Of course, I'm not saying that I'm the first person to ever think along these lines.  I'm just the first person I knew of.:-|

Edited by Yamanashi
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4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I first thought of this idea when looking through the career of Takamiyama.

Ikioi's career is another nice example of this: one-time sekiwake, twice komusubi, but almost always struggled badly when he rose above M4.

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One of the most elastic rubber bands has to be Hokutofuji.

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24 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

One of the most elastic rubber bands has to be Hokutofuji.

Pre-injury Tochinoshin did a lot of bouncing at M3w.

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1 minute ago, Asojima said:

Pre-injury Tochinoshin did a lot of bouncing at M3w.

Injuries did Tochinoshin a number. My new research for top 10 indicates that Tochinoshin is ranked in a 4-way tie for 6th place with most make-koshi in makuuchi at 45. Tamawashi "trails" him with 44 makuuchi make-koshi basho.

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1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

Injuries did Tochinoshin a number. My new research for top 10 indicates that Tochinoshin is ranked in a 4-way tie for 6th place with most make-koshi in makuuchi at 45. Tamawashi "trails" him with 44 makuuchi make-koshi basho.

After his injury and drop to Ms55, he showed classic rubber band behavior -- four Yusho in a row (including zensho Juryo), and Kanto-sho before hitting M1 and going 6-9; at that point I'd put him at a zero point of ~M3.  Then her did something I haven't seen before [note: I've only been following Sumo since 2016] -- three magic basho (with Faust as his tsukebito) and he's Ozeki.  Did he sell his soul?(Idunno...)

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34 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

After his injury and drop to Ms55, he showed classic rubber band behavior -- four Yusho in a row (including zensho Juryo), and Kanto-sho before hitting M1 and going 6-9; at that point I'd put him at a zero point of ~M3.  Then her did something I haven't seen before [note: I've only been following Sumo since 2016] -- three magic basho (with Faust as his tsukebito) and he's Ozeki.  Did he sell his soul?(Idunno...)

Considering what happened after he reached the rank, probably.

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44 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Did he sell his soul?(Idunno...)

Ah, Tochinoshin's 'pink period'. There are theories...

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8 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

One of the most elastic rubber bands has to be Hokutofuji.

He just charges the rubber band as hard as anyone he fights. You can get a lot of stretch leading with your face.

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11 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Ikioi's career is another nice example of this: one-time sekiwake, twice komusubi, but almost always struggled badly when he rose above M4.

There's an example of the zero point declining:  Classic Ikioi (2013-2016), ~M4; as the cellulitis started to set in (2017-2018), ~M7; then a descending sine wave until intai.

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