Kyushu 2023 discussion (results)

[Akinomaki 39,803]

4 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I think Rao, brother of diminutive Baraki, is retiring. Many camera flashes went off before his match vs Kanazawa, and he was greeted by several stablemates as he walked backstage. 

"No regrets" - same Raou comment as Kisenosato, who had a Rao kesho mawashi

o o o

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Senshuraku schedule out and yup, Atamifuji losing today means no Takakeisho for him.

Onosho - Wakamotoharu
Kotonowaka - Atamifuji
Daieisho - Hoshoryu
Takakeisho - Kirishima

Only scrapped the least important of the three intended post-soroibumi pairings. (Though I'm not sure if we'd have seen Kotonowaka - Wakamotoharu at all, even if Atamifuji wasn't in need of accommodation...)

Edit: Oh, and they've flipped the order of the Wakamotoharu and Kotonowaka matches from what it would normally be, moving the more interesting bout to third-last.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Octofuji 327]

I'm very happy to see Takarafuji secure another basho in Makuuchi. With very neat sumo too, starting by getting his favourite grip and blocking Endo's mae-mitsu for a while - then when Endo did get his grip Takarafuji immediately countered with an uwatedashinage his opponent would have been proud of.

[Octofuji 327]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Senshuraku schedule out and yup, Atamifuji losing today means no Takakeisho for him.

Onosho - Wakamotoharu
Kotonowaka - Atamifuji
Daieisho - Hoshoryu
Takakeisho - Kirishima

Only scrapped the least important of the three post-soroibumi pairings.

That feels like a real blow to Atamifuji's hopes. Kirishima's beaten Takakeisho 4 out of the last 5, and I think Hoshoryu would have been a tougher test for him.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

18 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

That feels like a real blow to Atamifuji's hopes. Kirishima's beaten Takakeisho 4 out of the last 5, and I think Hoshoryu would have been a tougher test for him.

Maybe, but that's not how it works.

[Hankegami 412]

Happy Day 14 to everyone! Man, I love and hate at the same time the day before Christmas Senshuraku. The pairings for Day 15 went out a few minutes ago, and are not half bad. Kirishima won the almost-Yusho match against Atamifuji with admirable control, and tomorrow will have his chance to clinch the Yusho by defeating what today appeared to be a totally gassed out Takakeisho. Atamifuji will have instead to defend at a same time his chances for a playoff, a san'yaku spot, and possibly also a sasho against a certainly much aware Kotonowaka. Four Tits failed to put up the numbers for an Ozeki promotion this time around, and he knows that he must win out to have a decent chance to get the rank in the next two basho. But let's talk about Day 14, and about my favorite boys in particular, in due order.

Oho managed to clinch a 7-7 by showing a very aggressive oshi-zumo against a battling Churanoumi. Tomorrow he will have the uneasy mission to win against Mitakeumi for a KK. Mita is already KK (8-6) but he would certainly like to get a decent hop up the banzuke with a 9-6. He's also by fat the most skilled oshi wrestler of them two. Anyway, I'm glad to see Oho fighting well from time to time. He fights too much often a 35-years-old battered veteran to be just 23 years old.

#1 Wakatakakage fan Ichiyamamoto celebrated his idol's 5-2 result down in Makushita with a somewhat unexpected win against former Komusubi and ever-dangerous Ryuden. Itchy now cruises at 9-5 and can get even 10 if he wins against Kinbozan tomorrow.

Now, all stand up for His Tsuridashiness Tsurugisho. Tochi II The Vengeance of Bum Knees has evidently decided that lifting people is his new reason of life. He did it again against 172 kg Mitakeumi and his poor knee also vehemently protested. Tomorrow he will face Ryuden (unless Gisho goes kyujo now that he got his KK), who at least is a relatively light 145 kg rikishi.

Now, two words for magic Ura. Today he had to face Gonoyama and managed to win thanks to a right inside grip which allowed him to escort the other man out. As far as I remember, it's rare for Ura to go for the belt, but a win is a win. Tomorrow he will get a chance to hit KK in a Darwinian match against Hokuseiho. Their record is a short and balanced 1-1 (here), but I admit that I see Ura ultimately with the upper hand against slow 'Seiho. Theoretically, a win would give Ura also an outside chance to be promoted to Komusubi especially after that Abi went MK today (although he can still be moved from K1e to K1w with a 7-8).

Finally, the san'yaku. Kotonowaka today saved his good basho by hitting 10 wins in an uneasy match against Shonannoumi. Tomorrow he will face Atamifuji to get 11. They have no precedents and bear a similar physical frame, so that's no way to predict how this match will go. On the other way around, a win would give Atamifuji an edge for a san'yaku spot with a M-1w claim (surpassing Ura's M0w with a 8-7). Another guy still on the run for Ozeki is Daieisho, that today trashed a rag-dolled Takakeisho to hit 9-5. Daieisho can hit 10 tomorrow by defeating Hoshoryu, who hit himself 9 today by showing that he still remembers what to do with a belt grip. It also helped that he denied Midorifuji an inside grip, and the Elf has not long enough arms to play on the outside against Horoshyu. Least but not last, the musubi no ichiban will feature Takakeisho vs. Kirishima. As others already pointed out, it's a slam dunk for Kirby and the NSK (fat chance to get a 13-2Y for once). The Hamster lies at a 1-4 record against Kirby in their last meetups (here), and most importantly he looked totally gassed out against Daieisho today. Lost the tachi'ai, his slaps didn't work, and was oshidashi'd out without further ado. If that same Takakeisho shows up tomorrow, Kirishima will devour him alive.

[RabidJohn 1,665]

Anyone know what happened to Kinbozan? He stopped trying like he was in massive pain, and he was favouring his right hand/wrist afterwards, but I couldn't see how he got hurt.

I don't mind admitting I was completely wrong about Takakeisho. Failing the tsuna run was a given, but he didn't drop out with an injury and he's not kadoban next time.

After his underwhelming makuuchi debut, Atamifuji is like a completely different rikishi. I'm still nervous about that shoulder, but he looks like he's headed for sanyaku and has the ability to stay there.

For once, I'm hoping we don't get a play-off.

[Akinomaki 39,803]

Definitely not many sansho this time - Ichiyamamoto may be considered for kantosho, with a win, as the sole leader for 2 days and in the lead till day 10. Atamifuji is fix for a sansho, likely only this one.

Takayasu and Gonoyama are eligible for shukun-sho, when Kirishima gets the the almost ensured yusho, Gonoyama only if he wins to get kachikoshi. Both won against another ozeki as well and are even at shukun points. Should he get the yusho, Atamifuji should be the one to get the shukun-sho.

Kotonowaka should get the gino-sho, but there is no need to award that sansho this time.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi 4,071]

1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

Definitely not many sansho this time - Churanoumi with a win will get the newcomer kanto-sho, Ichiyamamoto may be considered for kantosho, with a win, as the sole leader for 2 days and in the lead till day 10. Atamifuji is fix for a sansho, likely only this one.

Takayasu and Gonoyama are eligible for shukun-sho, when Kirishima gets the the almost ensured yusho, Gonoyama only if he wins to get kachikoshi. Both won against another ozeki as well and are even at shukun points. Should he get the yusho, Atamifuji should be the one to get the shukun-sho.

Kotonowaka should get the gino-sho, but there is no need to award that sansho this time.

What's shukun points?

[junsan 170]

Boya Atamifuji was acutely soft today. You gotta bring that fighting spirit especially at times like these.

[dingo 1,160]

Did Tsurugishou really need to aggravate his knee injury by going all out against Mitakeumi? He already had his kachikoshi, it would've been more reasonable to just take it easy.

If I'm doing the counting right, Takarafuji should definitely be safe to stay in Makuuchi for the next basho. I'm quite happy about that as I'm not quite ready to see him go just yet. 

Someone actually reminded Hokuseiho to move forward in today's bout! And whaddaya know, he won it quite easily. Let's see if he keeps his motivation for the kachikoshi deciding bout tomorrow. 

Great, tenacious bout between Ura and Gounoyama. To be honest, I didn't expect Ura to have a shot at kachikoshi some days ago, but you can almost see the rabbit ears coming out of the hat. Just the final day to go. 

Kotonowaka seemed quite anxious to get his 10th win and he almost let Shonannoumi recover by getting a mawashi grip, but managed to pull out a throw before things could've gotten bad. If he manages to get the 11th win tomorrow it would be a nice stepping stone for a potential ozeki bid. 

Takakeisho obviously didn't see much point in trying too hard today, unlike Tsurugishou before. The tsuna is lost for now, the ozeki rank secured and life goes on. 

Atamifuji is simply too young and inexperienced to challenge the ozeki consistently, but we'll see in a few years. This and the last basho have been excellent learning experiences for him. 

[Akinomaki 39,803]

38 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

What's shukun points?

Shukun no hoshi. Something that gets you into a shukun interview at NHK: win against ozeki and yokozuna - worth more for the higher rank and for those in contention for the yusho

Edited November 25, 2023 by Akinomaki

[dingo 1,160]

Call me dumb but how is it possible that two ozeki don't face eachother during a basho, especially if both of them are contending for a yusho? Yes I know the torikumi makers had to adjust to Atamifuji but still, there's 14 other days when you can schedule it. Skip a sekiwake bout instead.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

9 minutes ago, dingo said:

Call me dumb but how is it possible that two ozeki don't face eachother during a basho, especially if both of them are contending for a yusho? Yes I know the torikumi makers had to adjust to Atamifuji but still, there's 14 other days when you can schedule it. Skip a sekiwake bout instead.

I'm sorry, but complaints like this almost never make any sense. Do you want them to schedule ozeki vs ozeki matches much earlier and/or pre-emptively scrap ozeki vs sekiwake matches in every basho just because they might need an empty spot for a surging maegashira at the end? Because that's the only way to deal with the issue. They started pushing Atamifuji up the schedule as soon as was feasible, i.e. once he was assured of 8 wins. But because he had two losses rather early on (by Day 7), that meant we were already on the Day 12 schedule by that point in time.

Anyway, if Hoshoryu had done what he was supposed to do on that day, we wouldn't even have anything to talk about here.

[Octofuji 327]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Maybe, but that's not how it works.

Is that because Takakeisho and Kirishima are the top-ranked Ozeki? And the only valid reason to depart from scheduling by the banzuke on the final day would be to match up yusho candidates?

(There must be more to it than that - in general at least - as in week 2 we often see rikishi doing well being matched against others doing well, sometimes with very little regard to their respective ranks).

 

[dingo 1,160]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm sorry, but complaints like this almost never make any sense. Do you want them to schedule ozeki vs ozeki matches much earlier and/or pre-emptively scrap ozeki vs sekiwake matches in every basho just because they might need an empty spot for a surging maegashira at the end? Because that's the only way to deal with the issue. They started pushing Atamifuji up the schedule as soon as was feasible, i.e. once he was assured of 8 wins. But because he had two losses rather early on (by Day 7), that meant we were already on the Day 12 schedule by that point in time.

Anyway, if Hoshoryu had done what he was supposed to do on that day, we wouldn't even have anything to talk about here.

I understand that but maybe it really would be better to schedule ozeki vs ozeki matches earlier. For example let all other ozeki have their matches on the earlier days and save one for senshuraku. It wouldn't make a difference is the ozeki face one less maegashira for example. Perhaps also the viewers would rather see ozeki vs ozeki.

I know my approach is very simplified and I have only a general understanding of torikumi intricacies, but my view is based on the assumption that it would be better to maximise bouts between higher ranks. Especially if we have only 3 ozeki and no healthy yokozuna.

Edited November 25, 2023 by dingo

[Seiyashi 4,071]

3 minutes ago, dingo said:

I know my approach is very simplified and I have only a general understanding of torikumi intricacies, but my view is based on the assumption that it would be better to maximise bouts between higher ranks.

What happened when we had Shōdai and Mitakeumi at the rank is a pretty good reason why that metric alone does not a good torikumi make.

True, the ōzeki this time are performing far better than Shōdai and Mitakeumi did, but you still have an upstart that needs dealing with.

To be fair, the assumption that you maximise bouts between higher ranks is the default assumption in banzuke and torikumi making, but holds only if the higher ranks perform better. Thanks to injuries, people blowing hot and cold, or over/underpromoted, there can be a lot of variance in performance relative to their rank. You need the torikumi to be adjustable to make up for that, or the yūshō would be a travesty a lot more often.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Asashosakari 18,786]

3 minutes ago, dingo said:

I understand that but maybe it really would be better to schedule ozeki vs ozeki matches earlier. For example let all other ozeki have their matches on the earlier days and save one for senshuraku. It wouldn't make a difference is the ozeki face one less maegashira for example. Perhaps also the viewers would rather see ozeki vs ozeki.

I know my approach is very simplified and I have only a general understanding of torikumi intricacies, but my view is based on the assumption that it would be better to maximise bouts between higher ranks. Especially if we have only 3 ozeki and no healthy yokozuna.

After 10 days, the top of the arasoi featured the following scores, among others:

O1w Kirishima 8-2, all opponents M4 and higher
S2e Kotonowaka 8-2, all opponents M4 and higher
M8w Atamifuji 8-2, all opponents M5 and lower

O1e Takakeisho 7-3, all opponents M4 and higher
O2w Hoshoryu 7-3, all opponents M4 and higher

Let's be honest: Which of these five rikishi was realistically the least likely to be in yusho contention on Day 15?

And that's the point in time (ahead of the Day 12 schedule being made) at which they actually did try to deal with Atamifuji. You seem to be arguing in favour of handling potential upstart maegashira even earlier. Should they have rushed ozeki vs ozeki matchups ahead of their normal Day 13-15 slots - and then quite possibly be caught with a yusho race involving high-rankers who can't be matched up at the business end of the tournament anymore? That's the fundamental problem here. You're looking at it as "just gotta get those matches in". But what's the point of doing high profile match-ups in non-high profile parts of the schedule?

[dingo 1,160]

40 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

You seem to be arguing in favour of handling potential upstart maegashira even earlier. Should they have rushed ozeki vs ozeki matchups ahead of their normal Day 13-15 slots - and then quite possibly be caught with a yusho race involving high-rankers who can't be matched up at the business end of the tournament anymore? That's the fundamental problem here. You're looking at it as "just gotta get those matches in". But what's the point of doing high profile match-ups in non-high profile parts of the schedule?

I didn't intend to say that potential upstart maegashira should be handed to ozeki sooner, but perhaps to higher maegashira or lower sanyaku? Your schedule actually points out that Atamifuji had no opponents higher than M5 by day 10. That's seemingly a regular schedule but last basho Atamifuji was anything but a regular makujiri rikishi. Perhaps the torikumi makers should've taken that into account earlier as well. Also, matching up high-rankers earlier is in my opinion better than not matching them up at all. Yes, that doesn't happen if there's no Atamifuji-like upstart, but in the last 2 years or so has made it obvious that high-flying makuuchi are to be expected.

[Gurowake 3,923]

4 minutes ago, dingo said:

Also, matching up high-rankers earlier is in my opinion better than not matching them up at all.

This is where your opinion differs from the Kyokai's.  While this idea works when you *know* you'll have to break up intrasanyaku matches for non-joi maegashira yusho contenders, it fails in terms of putting the important matches last when top ranked rikishi are the ones in the Yusho race instead.  It also requires that exact opinion, which is not one that makes a ton of sense.  Why should those matches be more important?  In reality, those matches tend to be the least important unless they're between 2 people in the Yusho race, as they tend to have the least implications for banzuke movement, and banzuke movement is the main reason the tournament exists in the first place from a historical perspective. 

[Octofuji 327]

14 minutes ago, dingo said:

matching up high-rankers earlier is in my opinion better than not matching them up at all.

In the dog days of underperforming Shodai and Mitakeumi this was no loss, but Kirishima v Hoshoryu was the bout I was most looking forward to this basho and I think the basho is less of a spectacle for not having it.

It seems paradoxical that something that so rarely seems to happen (a full slate of Ozeki matchups at the end of the basho) should be so important it can't start a day or two earlier.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

1 hour ago, Octofuji said:

Is that because Takakeisho and Kirishima are the top-ranked Ozeki? And the only valid reason to depart from scheduling by the banzuke on the final day would be to match up yusho candidates?

Correct. There's no valid reason at all to match Kirishima against 9-5 O2w Hoshoryu instead of the rightful 9-5 O1e Takakeisho.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jakusotsu
typo - thanks, Joann!

[Benevolance 2,478]

7 hours ago, Octofuji said:

That feels like a real blow to Atamifuji's hopes. Kirishima's beaten Takakeisho 4 out of the last 5, and I think Hoshoryu would have been a tougher test for him.

If it's any consolation, scheduling Kirishima vs Atamifuji was the nail in the coffin of Takakeisho's hopes, so after the tournament Takakeisho and Atamifuji can go somewhere, split a 40 of whisky, and bitch about the lousy match makers.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

3 hours ago, dingo said:

I didn't intend to say that potential upstart maegashira should be handed to ozeki sooner, but perhaps to higher maegashira or lower sanyaku? Your schedule actually points out that Atamifuji had no opponents higher than M5 by day 10. That's seemingly a regular schedule but last basho Atamifuji was anything but a regular makujiri rikishi. Perhaps the torikumi makers should've taken that into account earlier as well.

True, it's less clear-cut than it would have been with most mid-maegashira who are performing well, but let's not overemphasize the lessons that maybe could have been learned from Aki basho. After going 8-1 against the dregs of the division, Atamifuji went on to: beat Takayasu, beat Tobizaru, lose to Daieisho, lose to Takakeisho, beat Abi, lose to Asanoyama. Considering he lost to Sadanoumi and Hiradoumi this time around - not exactly who you'd tab as major hurdles for a yusho-contending rikishi - which meant a significantly worse position going into the late tournament than he had back in September (one more loss, combined with much better-performing high rankers), I think it was perfectly valid to assume that he's unlikely to figure into the yusho decision a second time and all they'd need to do is put a couple of stoppers in his way. Works out the vast majority of the time, didn't work out here.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

Never thought I would say this but I think Tsurugisho deserves a prize this basho. He looked completely shot after five days but he has turned it around with some technically superb sumo. I have always tended to view him as a second-rater most notable for his "agony of defeat" facial expressions but he has produced career best efforts over the last week.