Kyushu 2023 discussion (results)

[Rocks 1,804]

10 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Is your diagnosis ready, doctor? What do you prescribe? 

I thought we could discuss sumo-related things without resorting to ad hominem.

You can. We also routinely discuss sumo fandom, or in this case lack of. Why would your preferences be off limits? People routinely comment on Kintamaya's inexplicable love of Konosuke despite his constantly seeming to get in the rikiski's way. 

[Jakusotsu 5,743]

Tomorrow's schedule implies they're already preparing for Kirishima-Hoshoryu on Senshuraku.

[Rocks 1,804]

11 minutes ago, hakutorizakura said:

T can be considered a yokozuna by relative numbers. He's top of the pack. But the kyokai wants absolute numbers AND domination (i.e. everyone looks up on him and shudders in fear). As much as I like him, sadly the latter is super hard since he's a hamster...

 

I'm not suggesting Takakeisho would ever be their preference. Nor that I would put his chances of winning this Yusho at 11-4 at much above 1%. But the Kyokai's has to dance with whoever shows up to the party. If he has the best moves, even if poor in relation to others before, he's  Fred Astaire for the night. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Rocks

[Morty 1,479]

Reminder that they don't actually need two yushos in a row for a Yokozuna promotion. Where circumstances allow (eg Kisenosato) they will promote with less than two consecutive yushos, and could do so with Takakeisho if they wanted to. I agree he has been the defacto Yokozuna for the last year and deserves the rope, but I don't think he'll get it. This is his third Tsuna run - most Ozeki recently haven't even had one

[rhyen 1,799]

9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Apropos of nothing, but doesn't Kitaharima 1) have striking features; 2) look like he could be ex-Homasho's younger brother?

I might as well compare Atamifuji’s profile to ukiyo-e prints right now. 

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

Well that's a disappointing way to start day 12. My two "can't miss" prospects, Roga and Kitanowaka, are going straight back down to juryo. Mind you, getting battered in ones mauku'uchi debut isn't necessarily a bad thing, as Atamifuji has shown.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Tigerboy1966
ce

[Bunbukuchagama 675]

1 minute ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Well that's a disappointing way to start day 12. My two "can't miss" prospects, Roga and Kitanowaka, are going straight back down to juryo. Mind you, getting battered in ones mauku'uchi debut isn't necessarily a bad thing, as Atamifuji has shown.

Tohakuryu is likely to join them.

 

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

11 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

13 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Well that's a disappointing way to start day 12. My two "can't miss" prospects, Roga and Kitanowaka, are going straight back down to juryo. Mind you, getting battered in ones mauku'uchi debut isn't necessarily a bad thing, as Atamifuji has shown.

Tohakuryu is likely to join them.

Yes but I won't miss him and his "pull and slap down" sumo.

[Kaninoyama 1,660]

Shodai looks badly hurt there. He said it wasn't his knee that crashed into the ground, but rather, when Ura landed on top of him that caused the pain. Hopefully it's not too serious. 

[Seiyashi 4,068]

What was that between Kotoshōhō and Tamashōhō? 

Daieishō seems to have finally learnt how not to overextend. His sumo was almost Takakeishō-like. 

Well deserved win for Atamifuji. 

Is it just me or does this basho have more double handed nodowa than usual? Abi, Ichiyamamoto, Tamawashi, Takayasu, and Daieishō all come to mind. 

[rokudenashi 290]

13 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Is it just me or does this basho have more double handed nodowa than usual? Abi, Ichiyamamoto, Tamawashi, Takayasu, and Daieishō all come to mind. 

They have all been watching Akira Taue matches

[RabidJohn 1,634]

14 hours ago, Barutokai said:

So Futahaguro, or rather his case,  is kind of a great barrier of Ozeki. As in preventing Konishiki, Kaio, Takakeisho... probably more from becoming a Yokozuna. People with more hinkaku than F. himself.

Tbf, it's only partly down to Futahaguro. He was promoted along with Onokuni, who became the 1st yokozuna to post an on-dohyo MK in Aki 1987. That and Futahaguro's dismissal within a few weeks led to the tightening of yokozuna promotion guidelines.

[Morty 1,479]

45 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Tbf, it's only partly down to Futahaguro. He was promoted along with Onokuni, who became the 1st yokozuna to post an on-dohyo MK in Aki 1987. That and Futahaguro's dismissal within a few weeks led to the tightening of yokozuna promotion guidelines.

It also wasn't Futahaguro's fault, as he couldn't promote himself. He has born the blame for the failure of the YDC and Kyokai for four decades, poor bastard.

[Seregost 119]

Can’t find the katasukashi in Takayasu’s win over Ryuden. 

[Hakuryuho 334]

13 minutes ago, Seregost said:

Can’t find the katasukashi in Takayasu’s win over Ryuden. 

Immediately thought the winning technique was a nice shitate(dashi)nage.

He did put his other hand on the shoulder of his opponent which can constitute a katasukashi but imo it was after Ryuden was already certain to lose.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Hakuryuho

[Hankegami 412]

23 hours ago, Barutokai said:

Never. While F. had 7 JY, Takakeisho would have 5 Y, 8 JY.

I'm sorry to post my reply just now since I was the one opening this Futahaguro can of worms. Anyway, I didn't mean that Takakeisho = Futahaguro. I meant that a 11-4Y to 11-4Y back-to-back would represent a promotion case just as weak as Futahaguro's 12-3J to 14-1D run (Futahaguro's numbers are even much better despite no yusho came with them). Takakeisho instead is in danger to be one day compared to Wakanohana III, a full-fledged Yokozuna with 5 yusho under his belt but none after his promotion (an event not occurred since the case of the 43rd Yokozuna Yoshibayama in the 1950s). Wakanohana is generally regarded as a "disappointing" Yokozuna just for that, despite his actually respectable collection of Yusho. Now, Takakeisho is not really making up a strong claim for a Yokozuna capable to take many Yusho in the future. As a matter of fact, he came from his 13-2Y from 2018 and 2020, to his 12-3Y and 11-4Y in 2023. If else, his bar is visibly going lower. There is no assurance that he will be good enough to win another Yusho in the future, especially if the Yusho line comes again as high as 13-15 wins like it was in the good 'ole days. What I talked about is a situation in which the NSK would be criticized for promoting Takakeisho because of his lack of results as Yokozuna. That's why I believe they should pretend for a "strong result" (as demanded by Sadogatake-oyakata - but not explicitly from the YDC) from him before giving him the rope.

Anyway, comparisons age-by-age for Yokozuna are not always as straightforward as some believe. Futahaguro left the NSK empty-handed at 24, while Takakeisho already won 2 Yusho at the same age, true. But for instance Chiyonofuji (ironically the guy most responsible for Futahaguro failing to win a Yusho in 1986-87) won his first Yusho at age 25, and had his Yokozuna spree (1981-1991) between age 26 and 36. Every rikishi is different, and IMHO Futahaguro was most likely set to become a decent Yokozuna were he promoted after having won a Yusho. Pressures from failing to win a Yusho as a Yokozuna in my view greatly contributed to his burst out of physical violence in late 1987.

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Tbf, it's only partly down to Futahaguro. He was promoted along with Onokuni, who became the 1st yokozuna to post an on-dohyo MK in Aki 1987. That and Futahaguro's dismissal within a few weeks led to the tightening of yokozuna promotion guidelines.

Truth be told, Futahaguro was promoted in 1986 and Onokuni in 1987, but that's true that both had a part in the late 1987 conundrum. Ironically, Onokuni was at least promoted with a respectable yusho + equivalent result (15-0Y 12-3J 13-2J) and even won a Yusho as a Yokozuna in Haru 1988. Were him to appear today, he would be promoted to Yokozuna once again despite all that ruckus.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Hankegami

[WAKATAKE 2,614]

11 hours ago, Morty said:

Reminder that they don't actually need two yushos in a row for a Yokozuna promotion. Where circumstances allow (eg Kisenosato) they will promote with less than two consecutive yushos, and could do so with Takakeisho if they wanted to. I agree he has been the defacto Yokozuna for the last year and deserves the rope, but I don't think he'll get it. This is his third Tsuna run - most Ozeki recently haven't even had one

Kakuryu and Terunofuji also had stronger cases that what Takakeisho has right now. Both did not have consecutive yusho, and Terunofuji was promoted with a jun-yusho in the second basho which hadn't happened since both Onokuni and Hokutoumi. But Onokuni's case is even further unique since he went 1Y then 2J to get promoted. 

[Yamanashi 3,687]

There's a (morbid?) fascination in watching the Jonokuni torikumi the last three days of a basho.  That's when injured rikishi are scheduled against an easy opponent in Jk to keep themselves on the banzuke.

The two targets this basho seem to be Sawaisamu (46 years old) and Higohikari (35).  Sawaisamu is from Shikihidebeya, the Island of Misfit Rikishi, and averages a couple of wins per basho against more hapless youngsters.  Higohikari hasn't won a bout in 2023, and his last half-dozen wins are mostly against Sawaisamu; he has trouble getting traction in the banzuke because most of his wins come against rikishi who retire soon afterwards, including the legendary Hattorizakura/Shonnanzakura).

It's clear these matchups are specifically set up for this purpose (Hattorizakura had a record number of 8-bout basho just to accommodate such bouts).  The problem is that the Bg-avoiders are sometimes really hurt, so they are taking a chance of further injury (and embarrassment) in scheduling these matches.

[Octofuji 316]

Fantastic sumo from Kirishima today. I didn't think he'd be able to outmuscle Kotonowaka and he was smart enough not to put himself in that position.

It would be nice to finish the basho with an Ozeki round robin, I expect I'm wrong but it feels like ages since that has happened (with three Ozeki anyway).

[Asashosakari 18,669]

10 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

There's a (morbid?) fascination in watching the Jonokuni torikumi the last three days of a basho.  That's when injured rikishi are scheduled against an easy opponent in Jk to keep themselves on the banzuke.

The two targets this basho seem to be Sawaisamu (46 years old) and Higohikari (35).  Sawaisamu is from Shikihidebeya, the Island of Misfit Rikishi, and averages a couple of wins per basho against more hapless youngsters.  Higohikari hasn't won a bout in 2023, and his last half-dozen wins are mostly against Sawaisamu; he has trouble getting traction in the banzuke because most of his wins come against rikishi who retire soon afterwards, including the legendary Hattorizakura/Shonnanzakura).

It's clear these matchups are specifically set up for this purpose (Hattorizakura had a record number of 8-bout basho just to accommodate such bouts).  The problem is that the Bg-avoiders are sometimes really hurt, so they are taking a chance of further injury (and embarrassment) in scheduling these matches.

"Specifically set up"? They're scheduled like any other lower division match. That's why two Day 13 joiners sometimes end up getting paired with each other.

(And jonokuchi rikishi getting an 8th match is related to that in only very tangential fashion...)

Edited November 23, 2023 by Asashosakari

[Tetsuba 32]

8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

"Specifically set up"? They're scheduled like any other lower division match. That's why two Day 13 joiners sometimes end up getting paired with each other.

(And jonokuchi rikishi getting an 8th match is related to that in only very tangential fashion...)

I discovered the first time Ryuden did this, he faced none other than Moriurara, who returned only for this day 13 too.
I don't need to tell you who won.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

1 hour ago, Tetsuba said:

I discovered the first time Ryuden did this, he faced none other than Moriurara, who returned only for this day 13 too.
I don't need to tell you who won.

In some circles, coming back to avoid going banzuke-gai is known as "doing the Ryūden".

[Akinomaki 39,548]

This basho the day 14 torikumi get announced after the last bout, like several times before and usually only for day 15. Last basho Inosuke actually announced them on day 13, surprisingly - this basho he only did it on days 4-7 and 9-10.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Akinomaki

[Kaninoyama 1,660]

Atamifuji proving that last basho was no fluke. 

[Akinomaki 39,548]

Tobidashi'd Hokuseiho should switch the kesho-mawashi again, the tattoo only led to 3-3 since he first used it