Nagoya 2023 discussion (results)

[Kishinoyama 582]

1 hour ago, Yubinhaad said:

If Hakuoho had won it would've been the first yusho by a shin-nyumaku since Ryogoku in 1914 Natsu.

That was what I was hoping for or three Ozeki promotions. The former not happening in what I consider the modern era and the latter never happening before.

That being said, I am really happy with Hakuoho and all that he accomplished. 

I hope that Kirishima, Asanoyama, Hakuoho, Takakeisho, Terunofuji, Kiho and anybody else that is injured will sit out the upcoming Natsu Jungyo. I would rather see the guys on the dohyo at the Aki basho. 

[Maguroyama 27]

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I haven't seen it so: first makunouchi yusho for Tatsunami beya in 55 years! Almost my entire life!

[Amamaniac 2,078]

15 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

Was hoping Hokutofuji could make the most of his once-in-a-lifetime chance but the moment was too big for him and the most likely result prevailed.

What made this tournament quite interesting was the number of "once-in-a-lifetime chances": possible first championship for Hokutofuji, possible (initially anyway) first championship for Nishikigi, possible Ozeki promotions for Daieisho and Wakamotoharu (sorry, but I fear that the ship has sailed for Daieisho and, perhaps, even for Wakamotoharu), and ... possible Makuuchi debut championship for Hakuoho.

Just goes to show that sumo is not for the faint hearted.  On this occasion, Hoshoryu had the necessary nerves of steel.

 

[Amamaniac 2,078]

17 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

We're already at six sansho now, record tied. Nishikigi first sansho after 103 basho is the slowest ever, Hakuoho after 4 the fastest ever.

The Kyokai got caught with their pants down on that one!  Usually, there is a Sansho trophy available on the day for each and every winner.  But given the circumstances (what someone called "A Kantosho bargain sale" on the Abema broadcast), they had to recycle the same kantosho trophy for each recipient!  As soon as one winner stepped down off the ring with the trophy, yobidashi Kouhei snatched it from their hands and carried it back up onto the ring for the next presentation.  That's the first time I've seen something like that!

Edited July 24, 2023 by Amamaniac

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Apologies if someone else has already brought up the amazing performance by Wakakari in the Sandanme Playoff bout.  Colour me impressed!  This 18 year-old (after only three tournaments in Oozumo, not counting Maezumo) showed some real technique, going in with a Plan A, Plan B, and probably Plan C & D.  It was, in my mind, one of the best bouts of the tournament ... in any division.  I may be exaggerating for effect, but Wakakari could probably teach half of the Makuuchi boys a thing or two.  Check it out if you haven't seen it already.

[Katooshu 3,135]

Yes he was also very impressive in handing 13-0 former Nihon University captain Haruyama his first defeat. He has all sorts of moves in his bag (e.g. he won a pushing contest vs Haruyama, then won the playoff with a kakenage) and is very adaptable. Strong for his size too and doesn't have to rely on being a trickster like some of the smaller prospects do.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Katooshu

[Morty 1,480]

It's not a prediction, but my hope for about the past year has been that we would get a long term rivalry at the top between the Nephew and the two Grandsons, spiced up by their respective lineages and the honour of representing them etc. This basho would appear that at least one and a half (if not two) of the chess pieces were put into a more advantageous position for that to happen, with Hoshoryu's yusho and likely ozeki promotion, and Kotonowaka's likely ascent to Sekiwake, and the additional spice of him finally beating Hosh for the first time in the last 11 bouts, and doing so decisively. Unfortunately the last chess piece (Oho) has currently been lost down the back of the couch and I'm not currently betting it will be found and put back on the board. Still, a decade long storied rivalry between the Nephew and one Grandson would be awesome, and adding a couple of other strong rikishi into that mix would make it really interesting. Of the guys in the right age bracket that could be  Hakuoho, if he can maintain this momentum, Hokuseiho, if he can learn how to use his size to his advantage, or any of the other younger guys with potential. Then a couple of current guys at the top (Asanoyama, Kirishima, Wakamotoharu maybe) to make getting to the final goal interesting. Unfortunately both Terunofuji and Takakeisho look too injured and broken down to be likely to be around much longer. Nevertheless, hopefully some exciting times coming up in the near future.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

I feel like neither grandson has shown enough in their sumo to be a lock for ōzeki much less yokozuna, especially when compared to e.g. Hakuōhō. And as you said, Kotonowaka is definitely much closer to making it than Ōhō is, when the latter seems horribly lost everytime he makes it someway up the banzuke. Besides, Taihō and Kotozakura long predated Asashōryū; the rivalry really is on with 'Shōryū and Hak round 2 and it really struck home during their pre-bout preparation yesterday.

Worth mentioning also that while Kotozakura may have founded Sadogatake and Kotonowaka is Kotozakura's lineal descendant, Hakuōhō also hails from the same town (Kurayoshi) and arguably has a claim to flying Kotozakura's flag. Something similar, though not entirely akin to, how Hakuhō can in a way be seen as a spiritual successor to Taihō.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Seiyashi

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

4 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I feel like neither grandson has shown enough in their sumo to be a lock for ōzeki much less yokozuna, especially when compared to e.g. Hakuōhō. Besides, Taihō and Kotozakura long predated Asashōryū; the rivalry really is on with 'Shōryū and Hak round 2 and it really struck home during their pre-bout preparation yesterday.

Worth mentioning also that while Kotozakura may have founded Sadogatake and Kotonowaka is his lineal descendant, Hakuōhō also hails from the same town (Kurayoshi) and arguably has a claim to flying Kotozakura's flag. Something similar, though not entirely akin to, how Hakuhō can in a way be seen as a spiritual successor to Taihō.

The current Sadogatake was founded by the first Kotonishiki

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=72

[Seiyashi 4,071]

26 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

The current Sadogatake was founded by the first Kotonishiki

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=72

Out of reacts but thanks. Edited.

[Naganoyama 5,841]

19 hours ago, Benihana said:

Asaoshoryu sounds good 

or Asa-hi-shoryu 旭青龍 to reference his stable master.

 

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 151]

Perhaps I'm just a Hoshoryu hater, but I can't help but feel extremely dissatisfied with this outcome.

My biggest gripe is the blatant missed call vs Tobizaru (courtesy of the ever incompetent Inosuke, why hasn't he been forced to step down already?). Without that he would have a true score of 11-4, and Hokutofuji wouldn't have been robbed of a yusho.

and the ozeki run includes two fusen last basho, so only 31 real wins. Plus Daiesho was skipped, so he also had one easier opponent.

Injuring Asanoyama was just icing on the cake.

I don't know, let's just say, for once I am glad it is two months until the next basho.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

28 minutes ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

My biggest gripe is the blatant missed call vs Tobizaru (courtesy of the ever incompetent Inosuke, why hasn't he been forced to step down already?). Without that he would have a true score of 11-4, and Hokutofuji wouldn't have been robbed of a yusho.

I'll give you that, but the blame also lies on the mono-ii team who didn't see anything. Until there's a rule that rikishi have to self-declare if they touched (and there shouldn't, because they can't tell that they didn't touch second), he's blameless in the affair. There seems to be one general cockup from the shimpan and the gyoji each basho, though.

28 minutes ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

and the ozeki run includes two fusen last basho, so only 31 real wins. Plus Daiesho was skipped, so he also had one easier opponent.

Kirishima and Asanoyama also had 2 fusen in their run-up to ōzeki, while Shōdai, Tochinoshin and Takayasu had 1. Asanoyama even had 2 fusen with only 32 wins to boot.

Generally there's no evidence that fusen count less for promotion.

And did you see how Daieishō was wrestling towards the end of the basho, or Hakuōhō for that matter? I don't think you could say that Hakuōhō was an easier opponent by Daieishō, or if so, not by very much.

28 minutes ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Injuring Asanoyama was just icing on the cake.

This, I dunno. There's been discussion on this and the consensus is that it wasn't as if Hōshōryū was doing anything particularly dangerous like kotenage or dame-oshi.

I'm personally a bit miffed that Hakuōhō didn't win, since a 109-year old record is rarer than an ōzeki promotion (and I stan Miyagino harder than I do Hōsh). But even with the freebie, Hōshōryū fully stepped up to the plate as an ōzeki should do to stop maegashira from getting the cup. I agree the yūshō may be a bit questionable thanks to the missed call, but the promotion isn't.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

20 minutes ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Perhaps I'm just a Hoshoryu hater

Yes, you are. 

[Hakuryuho 334]

Here's a 4h video of senshuraku, showing the bouts from a neat camera angle without commentary, just the crowd noise.
Also includes footage from the trophy ceremony as well as the "victory parade"!

 

 

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

1 hour ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Perhaps I'm just a Hoshoryu hater, but I can't help but feel extremely dissatisfied with this outcome.

My biggest gripe is the blatant missed call vs Tobizaru (courtesy of the ever incompetent Inosuke, why hasn't he been forced to step down already?). Without that he would have a true score of 11-4, and Hokutofuji wouldn't have been robbed of a yusho.

and the ozeki run includes two fusen last basho, so only 31 real wins. Plus Daiesho was skipped, so he also had one easier opponent.

Injuring Asanoyama was just icing on the cake.

I don't know, let's just say, for once I am glad it is two months until the next basho.

Let's not forget that Asanoyama's yusho happened courtesy of a very questionable mono-ii call that wasn't even agreed upon, and one shimpan took it upon himself to change the result of that match, as if he was aiming to be the Angel Hernandez of the sumo world. It stirred quite a few people up so much that some self-declared sumo YouTube "journalist" decided he had a vendetta against the NSK to try and find everything under the sun to try and discredit them

[dingo 1,160]

I'm a bit late to the party but congratulations to Hoshoryuu! Without a doubt the most ozeki like sumo out of all the contenders this basho. I agree that he seems to have a playful side to him outside the on-dohyo intensity. Got a glimpse of the yusho interview and he was a totally different person there. 

Out of the other ozeki candidates, Wakamotoharu might still get a chance on the future if he stays healthy. Daieisho on the other hand had by the end of the basho totally reverted to the old Daieisho. I don't think he'll get a smell of an ozeki run again. 

Hokutofuji and Nishikigi put together very good runs but in the end it wasn't to be. But it's not like they came away empty handed. Nishikigi got a sansho and sanyaku spot and Hokutofuji a doten-yusho. Both very good results for generally makuuchi journeymen rikishi. Yeah they'll feel that the yusho slipped away but that's (sumo) life for you. 

Asanoyama gave a proper comeback warning on his last few bouts. If he heals up he can be very dominant, he certainly has the skills and tools for it. Next ozeki? We'll see. 

Finally I was thoroughly entertained by Murray Johnson calling Midorifuji's throw of Hokuseiho "flipping a burger". From now on can we nickname Hokuseiho Hamburger? 

[dingo 1,160]

14 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

If Hakuoho had won it would've been the first yusho by a shin-nyumaku since Ryogoku in 1914 Natsu.

Surprisingly, Tobizaru out of all rikishi was fairly close to breaking that record in his shin-nyumaku basho. 

[RabidJohn 1,663]

3 hours ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Perhaps I'm just a Hoshoryu hater, but I can't help but feel extremely dissatisfied with this outcome.

My biggest gripe is the blatant missed call vs Tobizaru (courtesy of the ever incompetent Inosuke, why hasn't he been forced to step down already?).

I said at the time that I thought the head shimpan should've stuck his hand up and made them restart properly, but I have no issues with Inosuke's call. Tobizaru was already nearly flat on his back (i.e. dead body) when Hoshoryu touched with his hand. 

Inosuke has handed in his resignation papers with every sashi-chigae he's had since becoming tate-gyoji. The Kyokai has never accepted them, nor have they told him to go kyujo until he's 65. Black looks from Sadogatake count for nothing, other than making the head shimpan look like a dickhead.

I don't know the numbers, but in terms of sashi-chigae (the only actual measure of incompetence AFAIK) Inosuke subjectively seems no worse than the sanyaku gyoji to me.

[Akinomaki 39,784]

9 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

The Kyokai got caught with their pants down on that one!  Usually, there is a Sansho trophy available on the day for each and every winner.  But given the circumstances (what someone called "A Kantosho bargain sale" on the Abema broadcast), they had to recycle the same kantosho trophy for each recipient!  As soon as one winner stepped down off the ring with the trophy, yobidashi Kouhei snatched it from their hands and carried it back up onto the ring for the next presentation.  That's the first time I've seen something like that!

They apparently only have 3 kantosho trophies/plates - I guess they could change the plates from another gino- or shukunsho trophy - Hakuoho only with one trophy - all newcomer trophies scrapped

o

Edit: but he had it later for NHK

o

Edited July 24, 2023 by Akinomaki

[Jabbamaru 166]

Omedetou, Ozeki Hoshōryu!

[Jakusotsu 5,814]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

They apparently only have 3 kantosho trophies/plates

Well, there's a reason it's called sansho. 

[Katooshu 3,135]

9 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I said at the time that I thought the head shimpan should've stuck his hand up and made them restart properly, but I have no issues with Inosuke's call. Tobizaru was already nearly flat on his back (i.e. dead body) when Hoshoryu touched with his hand. 

Inosuke has handed in his resignation papers with every sashi-chigae he's had since becoming tate-gyoji. The Kyokai has never accepted them, nor have they told him to go kyujo until he's 65. Black looks from Sadogatake count for nothing, other than making the head shimpan look like a dickhead.

I don't know the numbers, but in terms of sashi-chigae (the only actual measure of incompetence AFAIK) Inosuke subjectively seems no worse than the sanyaku gyoji to me.

I don't really understand the Tobizaru was dead argument. They clashed with each other, both lost balance and went down, but Hosh's hand clearly touched first. What about his own unrecoverable position? The contact that led to him touching down - Tobizaru pushing down on his head - happened before Tobizaru was 'dead'.

Hosh has had questionable calls go against him, so in the big picture I think this call just balances them out, but so many of these dead body arguments ignore that the rikishi who touched down first was unrecoverable too (hence them touching down), and in this case Tobizaru was a key factor in that, rather than being a limp body who touches second only due to the extra time it takes to hit the ground outside the dohyo.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Katooshu

[Kintamayama 44,353]

11 hours ago, Hakuryuho said:

Here's a 4h video of senshuraku, showing the bouts from a neat camera angle without commentary, just the crowd noise.
Also includes footage from the trophy ceremony as well as the "victory parade"!

 

 

Wow, great quality, nice angle.

[Shatsume 116]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Shatsume
Failure to human...