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New Juryo for Haru

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No news on a new shikona for Ochiai? Is this usually to be expected now if it were going to happen?

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2 minutes ago, Godango said:

No news on a new shikona for Ochiai? Is this usually to be expected now if it were going to happen?

I think they would have used it in the announcement, and it says Ochiai.

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1 hour ago, Reonito said:
1 hour ago, Godango said:

news on a new shikona for Ochiai? Is this usually to be expected now if it were going to happen?

I think they would have used it in the announcement, and it says Ochiai.

Hakuhō seems generally content to let his guys use their surname if they don't need to use a shikona (e.g. Hokuseihō or Raihō, since someone else was already wrestling under the name Watanabe). 

Also we now know there isn't a hard and fast rule against TD promotions. I hope to see Ochiai in the top division still with a buzz cut. 

Edited by Seiyashi
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8 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Hakuhō seems generally content to let his guys use their surname if they don't need to use a shikona (e.g. Hokuseihō or Raihō, since someone else was already wrestling under the name Watanabe).

I suspect it's also reflective of the occasionally seen attitude that super high caliber prospects should not merely get to juryo to "earn" their proper shikona, but makuuchi.

Edited by Asashosakari
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26 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I suspect it's also reflective of the occasionally seen attitude that super high caliber prospects should not merely get to juryo to "earn" their proper shikona, but makuuchi.

Or probably Hakuhō not wanting to run out of -hō names too fast. (Laughing...)

Jokes aside, we'll probably see if Kawazoe and Mukainakano, and to a lesser extent, Ōtani, get to sekitori. But I suspect this one is just entirely Hakuhō; both Miyaginos were happy to let Ishiura wrestle as such despite him not really being a prospect by any measure, and Ishii has yet to get his shikona either (although that one might be the flipside case of not having earned it).

On a separate matter I wonder if Ochiai's promotion (and hence the definitive dispelling of any doubts about whether an Ms15TD can be immediately promoted, or conspiracy theories on whether someone is out to screw Hak's recruits over) makes any difference to Nakamura's decision as to which stable to join. That early, I'm aware the quality of a recruit matters a lot more than coaching, but Ōshōma took 4 basho to get to jūryō under Naruto and the difference with Ochiai is a bit stark. If Nakamura is aiming for a salary to draw in a hurry, maybe going for the stable with a coach that knows all about the mental aspect of winning - and a proven case of coaching someone to a yūshō - would be the smarter strategy.

Edited by Seiyashi
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20 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Or probably Hakuhō not wanting to run out of -hō names too fast. (Laughing...)

Jokes aside, we'll probably see if Kawazoe and Mukainakano, and to a lesser extent, Ōtani, get to sekitori. But I suspect this one is just entirely Hakuhō; both Miyaginos were happy to let Ishiura wrestle as such despite him not really being a prospect by any measure, and Ishii has yet to get his shikona either (although that one might be the flipside case of not having earned it).

On a separate matter I wonder if Ochiai's promotion (and hence the definitive dispelling of any doubts about whether an Ms15TD can be immediately promoted, or conspiracy theories on whether someone is out to screw Hak's recruits over) makes any difference to Nakamura's decision as to which stable to join. That early, I'm aware the quality of a recruit matters a lot more than coaching, but Ōshōma took 4 basho to get to jūryō under Naruto and the difference with Ochiai is a bit stark. If Nakamura is aiming for a salary to draw in a hurry, maybe going for the stable with a coach that knows all about the mental aspect of winning - and a proven case of coaching someone to a yūshō - would be the smarter strategy.

Or it could be the rikishi.  Some on the Forum were unsure if Oshoma (Delgerbayar) had the right style (reactive and patient) for Makuuchi, his Ms15TD ranking notwithstanding.  Ochiai seems to be a much more aggressive fighter, and has gotten out of the gate fast.

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38 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Or probably Hakuhō not wanting to run out of -hō names too fast. (Laughing...)

Jokes aside, we'll probably see if Kawazoe and Mukainakano, and to a lesser extent, Ōtani, get to sekitori. But I suspect this one is just entirely Hakuhō; both Miyaginos were happy to let Ishiura wrestle as such despite him not really being a prospect by any measure, and Ishii has yet to get his shikona either (although that one might be the flipside case of not having earned it).

It's hard to know how Ishiura's case fits into all that, given that the name may actually have had some pre-existing prestige within the sumo world and/or for him personally via his father's efforts in amateur sumo. But yeah, I suppose we're indeed not long until further examples of Hakuho's intended treatment of the naming issue will crop up and offer some clarification.

I would be remiss though if I didn't point out that Hakuho's first uchi-deshi Daikiho did get his shikona upon his promotion to juryo. ;-) Of course it's been over a decade since.

Edited by Asashosakari

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3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

 

I would be remiss though if I didn't point out that Hakuho's first uchi-deshi Daikiho did get his shikona upon his promotion to juryo. ;-) Of course it's been over a decade since.

 

And then reverted to his real name after doing not so well. That doesn’t happen a whole lot. I wonder whose decision that was.(And then got 12 straight Kks and returned to Juryo without a shikona change this time till he slowly faded away..)

Edited by Kintamayama

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Tamashouhou (11years in sumo) is Tamawashi’s brother in law? I did not know that.

Edited by Kintamayama

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6 hours ago, Reonito said:

As expected, it's Tomokaze,

 

Exactly three years after dropping out of Juryo after that injury.

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4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Or probably Hakuhō not wanting to run out of -hō names too fast. (Laughing...)

Jokes aside, we'll probably see if Kawazoe and Mukainakano, and to a lesser extent, Ōtani, get to sekitori. But I suspect this one is just entirely Hakuhō; both Miyaginos were happy to let Ishiura wrestle as such despite him not really being a prospect by any measure, and Ishii has yet to get his shikona either (although that one might be the flipside case of not having earned it).

On a separate matter I wonder if Ochiai's promotion (and hence the definitive dispelling of any doubts about whether an Ms15TD can be immediately promoted, or conspiracy theories on whether someone is out to screw Hak's recruits over) makes any difference to Nakamura's decision as to which stable to join. That early, I'm aware the quality of a recruit matters a lot more than coaching, but Ōshōma took 4 basho to get to jūryō under Naruto and the difference with Ochiai is a bit stark. If Nakamura is aiming for a salary to draw in a hurry, maybe going for the stable with a coach that knows all about the mental aspect of winning - and a proven case of coaching someone to a yūshō - would be the smarter strategy.

Nakamura will start at Ms10, so it was never really in doubt, was it?

I hope he doesn't join Miyagino. Would be a shame to miss out on a lot of good matchups

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2 hours ago, maglor said:

Nakamura will start at Ms10, so it was never really in doubt, was it?

I hope he doesn't join Miyagino. Would be a shame to miss out on a lot of good matchups

Why not (join Miyagino and beat up everyone else)?

you are guaranteed to avoid your fellow TDs (high ceiling potentiates), jumpstart another Dewanoumi/Fujishima/Futagoyama/Mushashigawa domination?

do they want to be Akebono fighting against everyone? Or Takanohana/Wakanohana3?

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4 hours ago, maglor said:

Nakamura will start at Ms10, so it was never really in doubt, was it?

Not now it isn't, but Ochiai was the test case to see if they would promote a TD straight to jūryō after one basho (because Shimoda's precedent had confounding factors). And of course he still needs to actually get the 7-0 first - Ōshōma took four basho to get to jūryō from Ms15TD, and frankly it would be borderline embarrassing to take that long from Ms10TD if the coaching wasn't great.

Edited by Seiyashi

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9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Or it could be the rikishi.  Some on the Forum were unsure if Oshoma (Delgerbayar) had the right style (reactive and patient) for Makuuchi, his Ms15TD ranking notwithstanding.  Ochiai seems to be a much more aggressive fighter, and has gotten out of the gate fast.

Where does Nakamura's style fit in relative to those two?

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Talking of Ochiai and Nakamura, here are pretty cool videos I recently got recommended again by YouTube (not sure if they have been posted here yet),
which show Ochiai training when he was still a high school student,fighting Nakamura and others
as well as him enjoying some chankonabe after a hard training session.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:
6 hours ago, maglor said:

Nakamura will start at Ms10, so it was never really in doubt, was it?

Not now it isn't, but Ochiai was the test case to see if they would promote a TD straight to jūryō after one basho (because Shimoda's precedent had confounding factors).

Was it really? As far as I'm concerned it has provided only minimal new information, in both directions:

We already knew that they can promote anybody off a 7-0 that they want (see Daimanazuru after 2003.11 when the divisional expansion opened up lots of space). Their self-imposed top 15 ranks rule just specifies that those are guys who must be promoted, which I've always taken to mean that they'll go to extreme lengths to ensure it happens including passing over other highly deserving candidates (e.g. Ms1e kachikoshi) or demoting juryo rikishi who otherwise wouldn't be demoted, or possibly even break the juryo capacity for one tournament. It doesn't mean that they will never promote from outside the top 15, just that they won't feel compelled to do so, and they specifically said with Shimoda that he was considered outside, being "between" Ms15 and Ms16. That argument necessarily can't apply to Nakamura or any other Ms10Td since even a position between Ms10 and Ms11 is obviously still within the top 15 ranks.

On the flipside, while Ochiai's promotion might be interpreted as them overturning the Shimoda precedent, at best we can now infer that Ms15Td may occupy some sort of limbo space in their thinking where they'll make more of a good-faith effort to find space than they would for a Ms16e or below 7-0. I honestly expected nothing else because it was clear from how they responded to the public confusion around Shimoda that they themselves considered it an unfortunate situation.

Furthermore, when the Ms10 and Ms15 starting positions were introduced two decades ago, they were essentially sold as "puts high caliber rookies just one tournament away from juryo" as compensation for tightening up the rules for who qualifies for makushita starts compared to the more permissive old Ms60. If they didn't intend for them to be promotable they wouldn't have chosen those positions in the first place - after all, why hamstring your future selves with unnecessary complications?

Edited by Asashosakari
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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Where does Nakamura's style fit in relative to those two?

Helifino.   Some of the Amasumo posters like @mikawa and @Katooshu might be able to enlighten us both.

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I got a mail from the Tottori local Nihonkai shimbun, telling they have the full e-paper free for everybody today (without registration), due to snow problems causing the delay of delivering the proper paper. They have a gogai shimbun special for Ochiai's juryo promotion: https://viewer-data.nnn.co.jp/hv/index_viewer.html?mcd=H007&npd=20230125

article in the main morning paper, which appeared before the coinference https://viewer-data.nnn.co.jp/hv/index_viewer.html?pkg=jp.co.nnn.viewer.pc&mcd=H001&npd=20230125&uid=-1&tkn=unknow&pn=12

I wonder how long it stays free

Edit: Funny, the gogai is gone, but the paper is still there, and by changing the date, also today's article on Ochiai was displayed

Edited by Akinomaki
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12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I suspect it's also reflective of the occasionally seen attitude that super high caliber prospects should not merely get to juryo to "earn" their proper shikona, but makuuchi.

Or, in Endo's case, ozeki.

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Not now it isn't, but Ochiai was the test case to see if they would promote a TD straight to jūryō after one basho (because Shimoda's precedent had confounding factors). And of course he still needs to actually get the 7-0 first - Ōshōma took four basho to get to jūryō from Ms15TD, and frankly it would be borderline embarrassing to take that long from Ms10TD if the coaching wasn't great.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone doubted a 7-0 from Ms10TD = promotion. One of the arguments I heard was that Ms10TD exists because it's in the extended promotion zone, while Ms15TD isn't (which we now know isn't the case, even if it's not a guarantee).

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2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Their self-imposed top 15 ranks rule just specifies that those are guys who must be promoted, which I've always taken to mean that they'll go to extreme lengths to ensure it happens including passing over other highly deserving candidates (e.g. Ms1e kachikoshi) or demoting juryo rikishi who otherwise wouldn't be demoted, or possibly even break the juryo capacity for one tournament.

Although we've never actually seen any of these extreme scenarios, correct?

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35 minutes ago, Reonito said:
2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Their self-imposed top 15 ranks rule just specifies that those are guys who must be promoted, which I've always taken to mean that they'll go to extreme lengths to ensure it happens including passing over other highly deserving candidates (e.g. Ms1e kachikoshi) or demoting juryo rikishi who otherwise wouldn't be demoted, or possibly even break the juryo capacity for one tournament.

Although we've never actually seen any of these extreme scenarios, correct?

Shimoda was passed over in favour of 5-2 Ms1e and 4-3 Ms1w, just for context, so I don't think Asashosakari's point goes as far as that extreme. Unless you take into account the idea that the NSK bodged that particular banzuke and Shimoda should have gone up instead of the Ms1w.

Which all goes back to my point that it's well and good to have reports and statements of rules and what not, but it takes an actual Ms15TD going 7-0 and being promoted in one basho to confirm that the NSK will in fact (as opposed to in theory) promote from Ms15TD if banzuke luck doesn't get in the way. As we say in my field, the first instance of something is never itself the rule, it's what others say about that first instance that becomes the rule.

Edited by Seiyashi

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