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YDC Post Hatsu 2023

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Is he on a tsuna run for Haru Basho?

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1 hour ago, rhyen said:

Is he on a tsuna run for Haru Basho?

He definitely should. I personally don't think they'll demand a STRONG yusho to follow up on this one, but if they're still unconvinced, they'll probably say he needs another yusho or equivalent - a jun-yusho won't do it for him.

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A tsuna run in Haru definitely. As for Terunofuji,  "I have been advised that he has donned a mawashi and is doing the basic moves  and lending his chest in in training in preparation for his return. I personally am looking forward to seeing him mount the dohyo next basho, but we as the YDC shouldn't be repeatedly asking him to show up. It's better if we could see him as soon as possible, but  we'd like to see him in perfect shape when he does. He has undergone serious surgery  and we have high hopes for him, but I think that  the YDC calling him to enter now because we have high hopes is a bit of an exaggeration.." said YDC chairman Komura. Mr. Komura (80)  will be retiring from his post as chairman and Mr. Yamauchi (75, Professor Emeritus Tokyo University) will be his successor. 

Edited by Kintamayama
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As for Takakeishou's tsuna run this basho with the 12-3 record- There was some talk amongst the members that this warranted at least a discussion that never was."We'll have to wait and see his record and the quality of his sumo next basho. Most members maintained that it wasn't a high-level yusho, so there really isn't much to discuss,"  said Chairman Komura. "We'll see how he does next basho and we will consider the question depending on how well he does..We have not put a number on his wins next basho that will get him promoted, we shall see," summed the Chairman.

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4 hours ago, rhyen said:

Is he on a tsuna run for Haru Basho?

He won a Yusho so he is on tsuna run by default... granted, he needs to win a yusho in order to get promotion, but he is on a run, just as any other Ozeki who wins a yusho was on a tsuna run.

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

As for Takakeishou's tsuna run this basho with the 12-3 record- There was some talk amongst the members that this warranted at least a discussion that never was."We'll have to wait and see his record and the quality of his sumo next basho. Most members maintained that it wasn't a high-level yusho, so there really isn't much to discuss,"  said Chairman Komura. "We'll see how he does next basho and we will consider the question depending on how well he does..We have not put a number on his wins next basho that will get him promoted, we shall see," summed the Chairman.

So they are treating him with dainty gloves like Kisenosato? No win target, no pressure?

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1 hour ago, rhyen said:

So they are treating him with dainty gloves like Kisenosato? No win target, no pressure?

Yes, even though he's not Japanese..

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4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

"We'll have to wait and see his record and the quality of his sumo next basho. Most members maintained that it wasn't a high-level yusho, so there really isn't much to discuss,"  said Chairman Komura. "We'll see how he does next basho and we will consider the question depending on how well he does..We have not put a number on his wins next basho that will get him promoted, we shall see," summed the Chairman.

The way I see it, the treatment is on the tough side. My opinion is that the YDC is not yet accustomed to an (I think likely) era with a lack of overwhelmingly dominant top Rikishi.

Keisho has back-to-back Yusho and Yusho-doten which is as close as a Yusho equivalent to a Yusho can be. Indeed, I consider a serious discussion in the YDC on promotion appropriate. Well, I did not really expect that they promote him, either.

Granted, it was not a high-level Yusho, in the sense of total dominance. Is that expected for a Yokozuna? It shouldn't.

The yusho-doten was also not total dominance, however, the play-off was among hiramaku contenders that had a lighter schedule. Keisho was dominant in the Jo-i, that should not be forgotten.

Is the quality of his Sumo an issue? What sort of sumo can one expect from such a short Rikishi? Isn't the real issue that Keisho does not really look like a role model Yokozuna? If so, is that good?

In the past, the YDC often discussed Hinkaku - mostly in connection with foreign Rikishi. Is that forgotten? Isn't the absence of issues worth a bonus?

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15 minutes ago, Andreas21 said:

Keisho has back-to-back Yusho and Yusho-doten which is as close as a Yusho equivalent to a Yusho can be.

But with 12 wins each.  That's a good basis on which to start a long Yokozuna run where you don't quite have 2 yusho in a row, but 12+12 by itself is only going to get you the rope if those are both yushos, since that can't be denied (AFAIK).

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28 minutes ago, Andreas21 said:

The way I see it, the treatment is on the tough side. My opinion is that the YDC is not yet accustomed to an (I think likely) era with a lack of overwhelmingly dominant top Rikishi.

That's pretty much the definition of Yokozuna. Nothing wrong with just having well-performing Ozeki until a dominant wrestler rises.

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19 minutes ago, Andreas21 said:

Keisho has back-to-back Yusho and Yusho-doten which is as close as a Yusho equivalent to a Yusho can be.

Problem is, both of those are results are 12-3 unlike Kakuryu who got promoted following two 14-1 scores. Even worse, that doten loss is to a maegashira ranked rikishi (again, unlike Kakuryu who lost to Hakuho). And then there is the fact that in both of those basho he was the highest ranked active rikishi, meaning he was more or less "expected" to win those two basho.

Put all those three things together and it's really no surprise that there was no discussion about his promotion... and that YDC took a "wait and see what happen" approach.

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44 minutes ago, Andreas21 said:

In the past, the YDC often discussed Hinkaku - mostly in connection with foreign Rikishi. Is that forgotten?

That's strictly nostalgia now, like your Dad raking leaves in his Cardigan and a "middle eight" in Pop tunes.  I hardly ever see gravitas out there, let alone hinkaku.

However, seeing Takakeisho load up a five-foot long sweeping sukuinage gave me some hope that he wants to step up to the plate, Yokozuna-wise.

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12 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

That's strictly nostalgia now, like your Dad raking leaves in his Cardigan and a "middle eight" in Pop tunes.  I hardly ever see gravitas out there, let alone hinkaku.

However, seeing Takakeisho load up a five-foot long sweeping sukuinage gave me some hope that he wants to step up to the plate, Yokozuna-wise.

Maybe it is nostalgia when it comes to Takakeisho... but I wouldn't be surprised if the issue get raised if Asanoyama ever get back to Ozeki and start looking to Yokozuna promotion.

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Definition of a Yokozona is power, skill and Hinkaku. Essentially, in absolute terms. The above quote is in accordance with this. It does not mention the number of wins, the absence of Terunofuji, losses to particular rikishi. This is secondary.

The power is good - remarkable for such a short guy. The skill is great in utilizing low center of gravity in Oshi Sumo - other skills (like Yotsu skills) are seemingly lacking but arguably less relevant for his size.

But is it enough to justify promotion? It makes totally sense not to promote him at this moment. More power and more skill would have resulted in a few more wins. I wonder if that is possible at all for him.

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2 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

My opinion is that the YDC is not yet accustomed to an (I think likely) era with a lack of overwhelmingly dominant top Rikishi.

And yet it was head-shinpan Sadogatake who refused to even invoke the YDC.

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3 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

The way I see it, the treatment is on the tough side. My opinion is that the YDC is not yet accustomed to an (I think likely) era with a lack of overwhelmingly dominant top Rikishi.

Keisho has back-to-back Yusho and Yusho-doten which is as close as a Yusho equivalent to a Yusho can be. Indeed, I consider a serious discussion in the YDC on promotion appropriate. Well, I did not really expect that they promote him, either.

Granted, it was not a high-level Yusho, in the sense of total dominance. Is that expected for a Yokozuna? It shouldn't.

The yusho-doten was also not total dominance, however, the play-off was among hiramaku contenders that had a lighter schedule. Keisho was dominant in the Jo-i, that should not be forgotten.

Is the quality of his Sumo an issue? What sort of sumo can one expect from such a short Rikishi? Isn't the real issue that Keisho does not really look like a role model Yokozuna? If so, is that good?

In the past, the YDC often discussed Hinkaku - mostly in connection with foreign Rikishi. Is that forgotten? Isn't the absence of issues worth a bonus?

Takanohana Koji had an 11-4J, 14-1Y and 13-2D when there was one yokozuna, and they didn't promote him then. He had to wait over a year and four yusho later before being promoted. His brother on the other hand did get promoted with a 12-3Y, but he had a 14-1Y before that to satisfy the criteria

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12 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Takanohana Koji had an 11-4J, 14-1Y and 13-2D when there was one yokozuna, and they didn't promote him then. He had to wait over a year and four yusho later before being promoted. His brother on the other hand did get promoted with a 12-3Y, but he had a 14-1Y before that to satisfy the criteria

Hakuho wasn't promoted with a 14-1Y 13-2 J. Musashimaru wasn't promoted with a 12-3J 15-0Y (yes, a zensho wasn't enough). Just two more of many examples post-Futahaguro of stronger cases than Takakeisho's being declined.

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Man, Takanohana was really hard done by with that 14-Y / 13-2 D. All's well that ends well I guess.

I'm kind of on the side of Sadogatake here. Yokozuna also need to perform under pressure; now granted, Takakeisho's mental game is absolutely one of his strengths. But they pretty much spelled out "Get 14". He didn't rise to it.

What he did do, is do really well, and make it easier for him next time. Nothing wrong with that.

The main thing is:
Since the promotion of Tochinishiki, there has never been promotion denied for an ozeki with consecutive yusho. Everything has been/will always be treated pretty subjectively.

To echo @Gurowake, it will be interesting to see what happens if Takakeisho gets yusho #2 with 12 wins or less (as there has never been an instance under 25), but I'd be pretty surprised if that came into it should he earn the yusho proper.

Precedent suggests (post-Futahaguro's intai) that 14-1 D/J would be a certainty, while giving ourselves an extra year or two would suggest 13-2 D/J would cut it. 

Specifically, to earn promotion:

  • Hokutoumi went 12-3 Y, 13-J
  • Onokuni went 12-3J, 13-2 J

Both were promoted prior to Futahaguro's intai and the application of more strict promotion criteria; but we've seen that criteria relaxed somewhat in our last few promotions; and unlike Futahaguro Takakeisho already has multiple yusho to his name. 

In short, I say any yusho is enough, 13-2 J/D is pretty certain.

Hopefully he shows up genki.

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8 hours ago, rhyen said:

So they are treating him with dainty gloves like Kisenosato? No win target, no pressure?

Sure, they can pressure him to come back early, fight injured, have a couple bad results, retire and now they have an ozeki promotion mess on their hands.

6 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

The way I see it, the treatment is on the tough side. My opinion is that the YDC is not yet accustomed to an (I think likely) era with a lack of overwhelmingly dominant top Rikishi.

Maybe tough, but also care too. If he promotes too early, not ready, etc it could end up ruining his career.

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25 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Maybe tough, but also care too. If he promotes too early, not ready, etc it could end up ruining his career.

Hmm.  He often gets banged up -- in his 22 basho since reaching Ozeki, he's left early six times, and limped home a couple of others.  While the Ozeki rank has the well-known insurance policy of getting a free MK before demotion, he's been nicked up a lot, and hasn't had much time to recover.  As a Yokozuna, he'd get a basho off if needed, instead of facing kadoban.  At 26 he's a mature athlete, so the only thing that would ruin his career is to play injured.  He's more likely to do that as an Ozeki.

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6 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Hmm.  He often gets banged up -- in his 22 basho since reaching Ozeki, he's left early six times, and limped home a couple of others.  While the Ozeki rank has the well-known insurance policy of getting a free MK before demotion, he's been nicked up a lot, and hasn't had much time to recover.  As a Yokozuna, he'd get a basho off if needed, instead of facing kadoban.  At 26 he's a mature athlete, so the only thing that would ruin his career is to play injured.  He's more likely to do that as an Ozeki.

He's also had three 8-7 basho in the last nine. Can't really do that as a Yokozuna...

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12 minutes ago, Reonito said:

He's also had three 8-7 basho in the last nine. Can't really do that as a Yokozuna...

Can't he?  He'll get yelled at by the YDC, but the years 2017-2021 showed me that Yokozuna are magic.  Let's look at those basho under the Yokozuna lens:

The first 8-7 (3/2022) came after his 1-3-11 basho; he lost the last four bouts after building up an 8-3 record.  Yokozuna Takakeisho would have gone kyujo after the loss to Takayasu and finished 8-5-2 with some convenient and probably accurate excuse; the YDC would mildly reprimand both him and Terunofuji (3-3-9) and so on. 

The next basho (5/2022), after losses on day 9 and 10, he's kyujo at 5-5-5; the YDC scolds him and says, "He should make sure he's ready for the next basho!  It's not do-or-die, but you know what we mean!!" 

Then he gets an 11-4 J in July 2022 and he and Terunofuji (also 11-4 J) are in the clear.

See how magic Yokozuna are?

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8 hours ago, Gurowake said:

But with 12 wins each.  That's a good basis on which to start a long Yokozuna run where you don't quite have 2 yusho in a row, but 12+12 by itself is only going to get you the rope if those are both yushos, since that can't be denied (AFAIK).

Chiyonoyama is a usable precedent if they wanted to deny a weak 2Y. The grounds were of youth but that was a 25 win total. 

Edited by Seiyashi

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5 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Chiyonoyama is a usable precedent if they wanted to deny a weak 2Y. The grounds were of youth but that was a 25 win total. 

I don't think he's a usable precedent, the YDC was formed just after he was denied promotion, with the codified rule that 2 yusho in a row lead to yokozuna promotion.

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