Haru 2023 discussion (results)

[Yamanashi 3,724]

There is a "sweet spot" between boring and chaotic.  The Forum seems to like unpredictable basho where anyone down to about M3 might win.  For lots of reasons, a win from the bottom ranks (I'm thinking Tokoshoryu, not Terunofuji) is inspiring -- once -- but somewhat embarrassing to the sport if repeated.  There are lots of competitive reasons for this (an M12 atop the leaderboard won't get high-class competition until ~day 12, etc.), but if the rankings mean anything the top rankers should be fighting it out for the title 98% of the time.

To me, the existence of the Yokozuna rank assumes there is a class of clearly dominant sekitori at any given time; that isn't logical.  If the NSK had banned Mongolian rikishi in 2000, would there be a slate of Japanese Yokozuna now?  Remember, an Ozeki can go on forever (as we've seen) without becoming a Yokozuna.  If there isn't anyone on the banzuke who can snap up 50% of the Yusho, and we can't just manufacture them, this is the string of basho we're going to get.

[I am the Yokozuna 186]

I personally prefer witnessing a 10-0 leading rikishi falling to a 10-5 result, by losing during his five loss stretch to a subsequent doten ketteisen rikishi rather than witnessing a 10-0 dominating rikishi on his 40-0 win run progressing to a 15-0 who makes everyone losing any hope that they have any chance to win a yusho on day number 5. Once you have witnessed it, it is interesting, but the second time is just boring and you crave for any semblance of competition, tension and unpredictability that the current period offers. 

[I am the Yokozuna 186]

3 hours ago, Oortael said:

I would express this another way.

It's great to follow the dominance of a rikishi over a long run ("I was there to see all 45 Hakuho yusho, son").
But for short-term entertainment value I feel a messy basho is better. Let's say I doubt many of us will remember fondly that 2nd Tamawashi yusho 10 years from now.

Come on. First Tamawashi yusho - Hakuho holds his hand up during the yusho parade. Hakuho gets scolded by Yokozuna Deliberation Council for not behaving properly. Second time - Tamawashi wins against Terunofuji by yorikiri who was on a form at that time. This is by heart. If my memory is fails me, apologies. 

[Wakawakawaka 136]

The sanyaku in total had a record of 67-37-1. That has to contend for some kind of record, either total wins or w/l ratio, yes?

[maglor 122]

Assuming you are referring to only sekiwake and komusubi, then yes it is a record for total wins.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&rank1=S-K&onlyw1=on

Not having any Yokozuna or Ozeki present makes it a lot easier of course.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

12 hours ago, Oortael said:

I would express this another way.

It's great to follow the dominance of a rikishi over a long run ("I was there to see all 45 Hakuho yusho, son").
But for short-term entertainment value I feel a messy basho is better. Let's say I doubt many of us will remember fondly that 2nd Tamawashi yusho 10 years from now.

I, for one, am enjoying the current "open" era. I suspect, many other sumo fans also appreciate not knowing who will win the yusho before the basho even starts. 

[Yamanashi 3,724]

1 hour ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I, for one, am enjoying the current "open" era. I suspect, many other sumo fans also appreciate not knowing who will win the yusho before the basho even starts. 

Agree.  I also appreciate that our Yokozuna is a beast who has serious injuries, and if he leaves the basho or misses the basho it's because of those obvious injuries.  I have not spent one moment missing the basho when a Yokozuna comes out flat with a 3-2 record and suddenly discovers he aggravated his sciatica during warmups and must go kyujo.  Bah, humbug!

[Yamanashi 3,724]

4 hours ago, maglor said:

Assuming you are referring to only sekiwake and komusubi, then yes it is a record for total wins.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&rank1=S-K&onlyw1=on

Not having any Yokozuna or Ozeki present makes it a lot easier of course.

Yep; in fact, if you include senior San'yaku, they went 70-41-24

[Oortael 151]

15 hours ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

Come on. First Tamawashi yusho - Hakuho holds his hand up during the yusho parade. Hakuho gets scolded by Yokozuna Deliberation Council for not behaving properly. Second time - Tamawashi wins against Terunofuji by yorikiri who was on a form at that time. This is by heart. If my memory is fails me, apologies. 

Good job getting all these details right ... but "Let's say I doubt many of us will remember fondly that 2nd Tamawashi yusho 10 years from now"

Looking forward to reading a post from you in March 2033

[Reonito 1,335]

15 hours ago, maglor said:

Assuming you are referring to only sekiwake and komusubi, then yes it is a record for total wins.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&rank1=S-K&onlyw1=on

Not having any Yokozuna or Ozeki present makes it a lot easier of course.

As does having 7 S/K

[since_94 650]

On 27/03/2023 at 20:04, lackmaker said:

No reason to believe its anything other than his character showing through. Some people need it to be psyched up for the challenge ahead. Doubt it's a gimmick.

Point taken. Takayasu, however, is a former Ozeki who was beating harder men than Hoshoryu in Makuuchi when the latter was in middle school. Regardless of ranks at the present time, I would say playing stare-down mind games with the veteran just so you can make him look away first in front of ten thousand expectant fans (because he wants to get on with the fight, not because he’s intimidated!) smacks of showboating and is borderline impertinent. The nephew got his ass handed too him anyway, after all that.

[Yarimotsu 522]

6 hours ago, since_94 said:

Point taken. Takayasu, however, is a former Ozeki who was beating harder men than Hoshoryu in Makuuchi when the latter was in middle school. Regardless of ranks at the present time, I would say playing stare-down mind games with the veteran just so you can make him look away first in front of ten thousand expectant fans (because he wants to get on with the fight, not because he’s intimidated!) smacks of showboating and is borderline impertinent. The nephew got his ass handed too him anyway, after all that.

He did it to Midorifuji once or twice as well - I rather think it's a tactic. Try something different before the bout to see if it can help with a poor head-to-head record. Get the opponent unsettled in some way. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't - but I love to see someone trying new ideas to get better. That's all I see it as.

[Yamanashi 3,724]

2 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

He did it to Midorifuji once or twice as well - I rather think it's a tactic. Try something different before the bout to see if it can help with a poor head-to-head record. Get the opponent unsettled in some way. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't - but I love to see someone trying new ideas to get better. That's all I see it as.

I thought it was bush league, although if he's going to make it a thing now on like his uncle, maybe it'll become part of his pre-bout schtick.

I think Asashoryu's schtick did not go down well with the powers in the NSK.  It's hard to read for a non-native:  if I saw two members of the Kanazawa Garden Society do a stare-down it would seem weird,; but Ozumo has those Samurai roots, so maybe there's an excuse for it.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

I think we excused the recurrence of the nirame-ai when Hōshōryū seemed to be making a step change in his sumo, but after a couple of unlucky injuries he's not quite reached the next level which that burst in form seemed to promise. I don't mind seeing it back, but I agree Hōsh should only really make a habit of it once he has the consistency to seriously challenge for yokozuna.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Seiyashi

[Jabbamaru 166]

I think the most important thing is not having a dominant yokozuna or a competitive basho... The most important thing is the quality of the sumo itself.  Unfortunately the quality lately is... Meh...

Luv Hosho's nirameai. Badass niramiai=Fun.

[Katooshu 3,135]

I like the occasional stare down - agree though that it would seem more fitting once he reaches a higher rank. I think you need more of an aura around you to consistently pull it off without looking a bit silly.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Katooshu

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Akebono and Takatoriki, those were the days...

[lackmaker 432]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

I like the occasional stare down - agree though that it would seem more fitting once he reaches a higher rank. I think you need more of an aura around you to consistently pull it off without looking a bit silly.

Agreed. But I think Hoshoryu does have a bit of an aura.

[since_94 650]

Not to keep flogging this horse, but being coupled with the scowling one’s refusal to ever be the one to put his hands down first just makes it even more irksome 

[since_94 650]

9 hours ago, Jabbamaru said:

I think the most important thing is not having a dominant yokozuna or a competitive basho... The most important thing is the quality of the sumo itself.  Unfortunately the quality lately is..Meh

Agree strongly. Makes me all the more grateful for performances like the ones Ura and Enho put in throughout the March tournament, win or lose. Arguably not always great sumo, at least in the classic sense of the term, but their brands of ringsmanship  rarely fail to entertain and provide spectacle. I felt those two salvaged some otherwise mostly unremarkable days of fights in the top 2 divisions with their fighting spirit and unconventional tactics 

[Suwihuto 125]

When did anyone last throw a zabuton? This is something I'm looking forward to when there are actually some high value kinboshi available.

[since_94 650]

26 minutes ago, Suwihuto said:

When did anyone last throw a zabuton? This is something I'm looking forward to when there are actually some high value kinboshi available.

January 2020 Kakuryu lost on Day 4 to M1 and pulled out on Day 5 so I’m going to go with that. Hakuho was out after Day 3.
Then  COVID.

[sumojoann 1,256]

Them suckers are sewn together now, aren't they, so they can no longer be thrown?

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 151]

Lol did everyone forget that lone zabuton thrown right at Shodai last year?

[Wakawakawaka 136]

4 hours ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Lol did everyone forget that lone zabuton thrown right at Shodai last year?

You mean the one that smacked him right in the head, that he caught and brushed away with the most poise he's ever shown in probably his whole sumo career? lol