Kyushu 2022 discussion (results)

[Hankegami 308]

Although not as exciting as Sandanme and Makushita, Day 6 is out also for the Maakuchi. I didn't write much in the last days for many reasons (personals issues but also boredom), but now that we are past Day 6 we can smell some blood already.

My impression is that Kyushu has passed from being Takakeisho's to Takayasu's to lose. Papa Bear has already done (and won against) all the San'yaku barring Kiribayama (against whom he is 5-3). Takakeisho trails back at 4-2 but I don't like the cupping marks on his back. Hoshoryu is impressive - technically speaking - but he has to face most San'yaku ATM. About the other 5-1 guys, I won't bet much money on Abi yet. He must get past the joi (full of very hungry Yusho hopefuls on top of that) to clutch the Yusho. And Oho, well, he's... Oho. The guy who doesn't hate Mondays but second weeks instead.

Anyway, I am glad that the runner-up list is filled with San'yaku for a change. Aside from Takakeisho,  Mitakeumi and Wakatakakage appear on their way to meet their primary goal for this basho, i.e. getting at least 10 wins and bounce back to Ozeki (Mita) and build a strong Ozeki bid for January (WTK) respectively. Their coming schedule is however full of tricky foes and I doubt they will manage to stay at 2 losses up until the end also considering they have to face each other at one point. Kiribayama as always falls under the radar but he's 4-2 just like the others. He's the only one of the main bunch who can still turn tables against Takayasu, and he could actually catch his opportunity, who knows. The others Komusubi are less impressive, although Daiesho looks good and can still get some important heads on his way. Tobizaru totally wasted his 3-0 head start but can still KK. Tamawashi... Er, I wish him a happy birthday at least. It was good he won at least on his birthday.

Final thought. The Juryo Yusho is shaping out as a battle of the veterans. 6-0 head runners Akua and Tsurugisho - of all people! - already have a 2 points lead against the others. The young lads are less impressive. Tochimusashi, who scored a good 11-4Y last basho, is now losing left and right like a Tamawashi. Kinbozan is cruising with a unimpressive 3-3. Hokuseiho is more on the race with his 4-2 and his sumo is actually evolving as he's showing also some oshi-zumo now. Perhaps he will provide some upset, let's see.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Hankegami

[Kaito 208]

17 minutes ago, Kotononami said:

No way I can understand the monoï decision on the Nishikigi-Takarafuji bout.

If someone knows , please tell me...

Takarafuji was pushed out of the ring before Nishikigi landed. To win with a pulldown, you must keep at least one foot planted inside the ring until your opponent hits the ground. Oftentimes (too often for my taste), they call for a rematch if it was close, but this time they judged it was clear that Takarafuji was fully airborne before Nishikigi landed. I assume your confusion is because Nishikigi landed before Takarafuji, but that's not what decides it. Takarafuji was dead from the moment his feet left the dohyo for the last time.

[Seregost 80]

12 minutes ago, Kotononami said:

No way I can understand the monoï decision on the Nishikigi-Takarafuji bout.

If someone knows , please tell me...

Me neither. I guess it implies somehow the dead body rule, but no idea. 

After 6 days, I think we had enough bouts to do a bit of talk. Some good sumo today, including, as commented above, that last second kotenage that Mitoryu pulled, and the lively combat between Okinoumi and Azumaryu, two vets that still had something left in the tank. No idea where's Ura's mind this days, but his two meters approach from the shikiri sen it's not working anymore, at least when you combine it with nothing else. Wakatakakage with not the best record, but fighting well, and still pointing at himself as the next ozeki hope, in my opinion. Hoshoryu is doing great, too, fast, serious, and pulling (intentionally or not) some great techniques, like that beautiful kawazugake on day 5th. Mitakeumi looking strong and calm enough to regain his Ozeki rank, although is too soon to tell. Shoday more awake than usual in the first week, could mantain his Ozekiness again, and Takakeisho will get his own kachikosi easily, but not so sure he will fight for the Emperor's Cup. Tamawashi maybe celebrated in excess his Aki yusho, or just don't want to force himself too much at his age, no idea. And to end this comment, my favourite Takayasu, once again fighting well, and having fought already the top guys from the banzuke, with just one loss handled by his nemesis Shodai. The problem may be, again, his "not programmed" losses again folks he should dominate. So let's see how he manages this time.

[since_94 638]

I found day 6 to be the most entertaining so far, by a wide margin. A few bouts that stood out: Mitoryu up from Juryo with an absolutely smokin kotenage against Ichiyamamoto. Okinoumi showing great nimbleness and balance against powerful Azamaryu. Oho with an impressive uwatenage to dispatch Terutsuyoshi. Koteoko showed his formidable muscle to force huge Aoiyama out by yorikiri, but he’s not gonna want to do that too often as it looked like it would take a toll on the ‘ol back, at least when shoving from that kind of awkward angle. Wakatakakage earned his blood patch with that hard fought shitatenage win over the giant lumbering drunk, er, I mean Ichinojo.  I think Takarafuji was robbed, but so be it.

Edited November 18, 2022 by since_94

[dingo 688]

Staggering inconsistency by the shimpan -- if Nishikigi won today then so should've Kotonowaka against Hoshoryuu on the first day. Takarafuji's strength has gone and unfortunately there's not much else to keep him in makuuchi. Retirement coming in a basho or few I guess. 

Endo is also doing uncharacteristically badly. Wonder if he's injured? 

Mitakeumi is drawing it awfully close. He's in much better shape than last basho, but will it be enough? 

Shodai on the other hand got a much needed win and has some leeway on his quest for the magical 8 wins. 

 

[Kaito 208]

27 minutes ago, dingo said:

Staggering inconsistency by the shimpan -- if Nishikigi won today then so should've Kotonowaka against Hoshoryuu on the first day. Takarafuji's strength has gone and unfortunately there's not much else to keep him in makuuchi. Retirement coming in a basho or few I guess. 

Endo is also doing uncharacteristically badly. Wonder if he's injured? 

Mitakeumi is drawing it awfully close. He's in much better shape than last basho, but will it be enough? 

Shodai on the other hand got a much needed win and has some leeway on his quest for the magical 8 wins. 

 

Here are some stills to compare the Hoshoryu/Kotonowaka and Nishikigi/Takarafuji finishes. Spoilered in case anybody's bothered by a wall of images.

Spoiler

Kotonowaka's arm is down. In the same frame, Hoshoryu's foot starts to blur as it's beginning to come off the rope. In the frame before this, he's clearly in, and in the frame after, clearly out. It's very close, but I think he just about stays in bounds long enough. Also...

Kotonowaka's left knee is touching down around the same time, if not before. Hoshoryu's left foot looks in bounds in this shot and looks good even a frame or two later before Kotonowaka's body blocks our view.

A third angle, again with Kotonowaka seemingly with his left knee on the rope while Hoshoryu's left leg keeps him in.

 

Now compare that with Nishikigi/Takarafuji today.

This is just after Takarafuji leaves the ground, on his way out of bounds.

And this is just before Nishikigi lands. Takarafuji has lost his presence in the ring. It's about a 5 frame difference; easy to tell even in real time. The mono-ii would never result in a Takarafuji win. I've seen worse torinaoshi calls, but I wouldn't support one.

 

[Seiyashi 3,540]

It feels like it's been a long time since the sanyaku were all .50 or better even this early in a basho. The only exception is Tamawashi, but then again slumping after a yūshō isn't exactly unprecedented for him. So far both Shōdai and Mitakeumi look reasonably on track to achieve the desired outcomes, and Hōshōryū and Takayasu as arasoi leaders is a nice narrative that I fear will go against Takayasu yet again.

But either way this is promising to be a good basho in terms of storylines shaping up, not the damp squibs we've been seeing all too often of late.

[dingo 688]

12 minutes ago, Kaito said:

Here are some stills to compare the Hoshoryu/Kotonowaka and Nishikigi/Takarafuji finishes. Spoilered in case anybody's bothered by a wall of images.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kotonowaka's arm is down. In the same frame, Hoshoryu's foot starts to blur as it's beginning to come off the rope. In the frame before this, he's clearly in, and in the frame after, clearly out. It's very close, but I think he just about stays in bounds long enough. Also...

Kotonowaka's left knee is touching down around the same time, if not before. Hoshoryu's left foot looks in bounds in this shot and looks good even a frame or two later before Kotonowaka's body blocks our view.

A third angle, again with Kotonowaka seemingly with his left knee on the rope while Hoshoryu's left leg keeps him in.

 

Now compare that with Nishikigi/Takarafuji today.

This is just after Takarafuji leaves the ground, on his way out of bounds.

And this is just before Nishikigi lands. Takarafuji has lost his presence in the ring. It's about a 5 frame difference; easy to tell even in real time. The mono-ii would never result in a Takarafuji win. I've seen worse torinaoshi calls, but I wouldn't support one.

 

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I'm not able to grab screenshots at the moment, but I think from the opposite angle Nishikigis body looked to be in a lot more debatable position. Kintamayama also pointed that out in his video. 

[Akinomaki 35,610]

Hoshoryu was the one to apply a technique till the end, Takarafuji was only waving his arms while being pushed out

[dingo 688]

Nope, Takarafuji was pushing down i.e. applying a technique until the end. 

[hakutorizakura 464]

Nice day of sumo today! Didn't expect that much fuel in the lower part of makuuchi.

I also think Nishikigi's shoelace (as someone wrote on Hosh above) touched down first, but well...

Hosh yusho, anyone?

[Gurowake 3,528]

3-0 Ms1w Shonannoumi has lucked out (for now) with Asanoyama going into Juryo on Day 6 and having his 4th match earlier.  His opponent for Day 7 ended up being quite low-ranked for being the next available 3-0.  Even if Shonannoumi wins, he might avoid Asanoyama again by being sent up for a second match in Juryo Day 9 (or maybe even Day 8?) if the number of sekitori withdrawals before then is even. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Gurowake

[Akinomaki 35,610]

2 hours ago, dingo said:

Nope, Takarafuji was pushing down i.e. applying a technique until the end. 

Takarafuji only went backwards, didn't touch Nishikigi till he was already dead in the air and Nishikigi fell down by himself

[Jakusotsu 4,996]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Nishikigi fell down by himself

Agreed, but does that make him a winner?

[Akinomaki 35,610]

49 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Agreed, but does that make him a winner?

Sutemi no waza, throw your body away (down) to win - he won because he vanquished his opponent with that. Kotonowaka achieved nothing like it, Hoshoryu was still able to retaliate - the dead body rule applies when that's no longer possible.

[Benevolance 2,302]

Takayasu co-leading the pack after 6 days, looking pretty decent and is clearly the most promising rikishi for the jun-yusho. 

[Reonito 785]

11 hours ago, Kotononami said:

No way I can understand the monoï decision on the Nishikigi-Takarafuji bout.

If someone knows , please tell me...

Can we please at least get a translation of the monoii discussion from someone who speaks Japanese?

[Kaninoyama 1,338]

9 hours ago, dingo said:

Staggering inconsistency by the shimpan -- if Nishikigi won today then so should've Kotonowaka against Hoshoryuu on the first day. Takarafuji's strength has gone and unfortunately there's not much else to keep him in makuuchi. Retirement coming in a basho or few I guess. 

Endo is also doing uncharacteristically badly. Wonder if he's injured? 

Mitakeumi is drawing it awfully close. He's in much better shape than last basho, but will it be enough? 

Shodai on the other hand got a much needed win and has some leeway on his quest for the magical 8 wins. 

 

Takarafuji is nursing an elbow injury, but certainly his best days appear to be behind him.

Endo has chronic knee issues, which I guess are flaring up and affecting his performance this basho. 

[Kintamayama 41,307]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Can we please at least get a translation of the monoii discussion from someone who speaks Japanese?

"I will explain this discussion. The gyoji's gumbai was in favor of Nishikigi, but it looked like Nishikigi's falling and Takarafuji's flying out happened at the same time, so a monoii was called and after a discussion, Takarafuji's body was out first, so it's gyoji gumbaidori and a win for Nishikigi.."

The top of Nishikigi's foot was out years before Takarafuji started flying.The thing is, it seems they never call that anymore, as if the top part of the foot touching is now OK for some reason. You can see it very clearly in the photo below. Top of the foot touches first.

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Kintamayama

[since_94 638]

36 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Takarafuji is nursing an elbow injury, but certainly his best days appear to be behind him.

Endo has chronic knee issues, which I guess are flaring up and affecting his performance this basho. 

Yes, it seems his left arm is basically useless to him at this point. It was evident in the bout everyone’s talking about 

[Yamanashi 3,052]

5 hours ago, Benevolance said:

Takayasu co-leading the pack after 6 days, looking pretty decent and is clearly the most promising rikishi for the jun-yusho. 

Hah, ha, we saw what you did there!

[maglor 101]

Watching Otani, who I'm told by amasumo watchers on here wasn't spectacular or anything in college, cruise through jonokuchi and jonidan really makes me think that perhaps tsukedashis should be given out more liberally to college grads - is there a point to this?

I wouldn't mind a system that went:

half-decent college grad: Sd90 TD

QFs at major tournament: Ms60 TD

Win at major tournament: Ms15 TD

 

Making guys who know what they're doing waste two months fighting meaningless bouts in maezumo and then two more fighting in a 30-man division is such a waste

[WAKATAKE 2,381]

2 hours ago, maglor said:

Watching Otani, who I'm told by amasumo watchers on here wasn't spectacular or anything in college, cruise through jonokuchi and jonidan really makes me think that perhaps tsukedashis should be given out more liberally to college grads - is there a point to this?

I wouldn't mind a system that went:

half-decent college grad: Sd90 TD

QFs at major tournament: Ms60 TD

Win at major tournament: Ms15 TD

 

Making guys who know what they're doing waste two months fighting meaningless bouts in maezumo and then two more fighting in a 30-man division is such a waste

Or maybe those who have an actual college degree with no results a TD at Jonidan

[Jakusotsu 4,996]

Anyone else suspecting a severe case of long covid with Asanowaka? He's not even a husk of his former self anymore.

[Katooshu 2,460]

Check out Mitoryu-Hokuseiho for the worst tachiai of all time