Kyushu 2022 discussion (results)

[Kintamayama 44,354]

3 hours ago, Rocks said:

 A henka from anyone isn't their best. It's a tacit admission they don't think they can win any other way.

And yet Abi did win in two other ways. In one day. Against the best.

[Rocks 1,807]

8 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

And yet Abi did win in two other ways. In one day. Against the best.

Two out of three ain't bad.

[junsan 170]

17 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

I didn't see a concussion, I saw a powerful man mentally destroyed.

That's what I saw too. One of the most emotionally hard hitting things I've ever seen.

[Octofuji 327]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Wakatakakage with makuuchi 57 wins has the 3rd worst result for a year with 6 basho, worst was Asanoyama with 55, then Hakuho with 56 - award pic

I thought this was just something us fans bothered about, I didn't know there was an actual trophy (even if it must feel a bit like a consolation prize).

[dada78641 884]

Although I can understand that the henka was a very anticlimactic move, I guess I can understand the reasoning for it from his perspective. If it works, it keeps him completely fresh for the next bout, while instilling the fear of another henka in the very henka-able Takakeisho. It very visibly made a difference in the bout with Takakeisho being unable to put sufficient power into the tachiai.

All things considered, I've got really mixed feelings about the outcome of the basho. It's sad that Takayasu lost yet another golden opportunity for a yusho through a henka and a really unfortunate head contact of all things. And while it's nice for Abi that he managed to make such an immense comeback after his punishment for flouting the COVID-19 guidelines and coming a millimeter away from having to retire, I somehow find that I still can't quite be happy for him. (Lame as this might sound, I actually never quite forgave him for that SNS scandal, which permanently caused all wrestlers to be disallowed from posting on social media... that was an absolutely astounding level of stupidity on his part.)

But well, what's done is done, and either way it's clear that Abi is going to be an absolute top class wrestler and title contender for a very long time. I'd be surprised if this was his last yusho.

Edited November 27, 2022 by dada78641

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

1 hour ago, Kotomiyama said:

I didn't see a concussion, I saw a powerful man mentally destroyed.

While it may not have been a concussion, you don't really think Takayasu acted the way he did by frustration only? We sure came to know him better than that.

[junsan 170]

9 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

On the Japanese side they are calling it a henka, but get this-  Kitanofuji was adamant  in saying that Abi did a henka against Takakeishou as well.. Mainoumi tried to reason with him that it wasn't a henka, but Kitanofuji was relentless saying it was a henka as well and that he won the yusho doing 2 henkas.

Talk about ridiculous.

Jiisan's obviously getting on a bit.

[Sumo Spiffy 535]

5 hours ago, Rocks said:

A henka from anyone isn't their best. It's a tacit admission they don't think they can win any other way.

I'm avowedly pro-henka (or at least pro-henkas-are-fine), but even setting that aside and trying to view it from the perspective of the henka being a sub-optimal way to win, I don't know how you blame anybody in Abi's position for deciding it's not a good idea to take the #1 most ferocious tachiai in sumo head-on. It's like getting mad at Tobizaru for sidestepping—you know he has the mobility advantage and the other guy has the power advantage, so why would you expect him to fight on the other guy's turf?

And this is setting aside the observation that Abi didn't appear to go "full henka", as it were—he was face up and ready to engage. The sidestep was to alleviate the contact he had to deal with. The fact Takayasu was jacked up and fell on his face had nothing to do with any of that.

I'm trying not to have a TED talk every time I see this come up, because I understand sumo's more fun when we see big dudes collide really hard, but I just get a little tired of this idea that it's unacceptable for the guys who are risking their health to do this to sometimes, even in the big moments, use a strategy that doesn't result in maximum impact. Or at least the better guys—if a consistent sanyaku rikishi pulled a henka once or twice every basho, but they were able to maintain a career longer from reducing that contact, isn't that better for a sport that's surrounded by conversations about how nobody can stick at the top?

55 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

While it may not have been a concussion, you don't really think Takayasu acted the way he did by frustration only? We sure came to know him better than that.

Yeah, he was pretty clearly hurt. My gf joined me to watch the playoff; I told her that someone was joking about what happens if both guys knock each other out and the playoff can't continue, but if Takakeisho beat Abi, we might well find out.

FWIW, I was super impressed by Takayasu's adjustments to how people fought him in big moments, especially against both Kagayaki and Abi. He didn't lose the first fight on his own; Abi straight took it from him. That happens. And for a moment, I wondered if he was just really frustrated when he went down, because that is the sort of body language we associate with the feeling, but it didn't make sense—nobody acts that way, no matter how bad the loss, and he wasn't out of it either. The injury became obvious.

[Octofuji 327]

I've just watched the March playoff and I'd totally forgotten that Takayasu was henka'd in that one too (HNH'd maybe, I couldn't tell...). But because Wakatakakage didn't win immediately and the ensuing bout was so exciting the henka clearly didn't stick in my memory.

As for concussion vs. mental collapse, Takayasu crumples as soon as his head makes contact with Abi. That must surely be a physical response, maybe a bit like when Takakeisho just 'stopped' v Ichinojo a while back.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

3 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

As for concussion vs. mental collapse, Takayasu crumples as soon as his head makes contact with Abi. That must surely be a physical response, maybe a bit like when Takakeisho just 'stopped' v Ichinojo a while back.

Right. That henka-or-not wouldn't have worked if Takayasu hadn't shut down immediately.

[Rocks 1,807]

6 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I'm trying not to have a TED talk every time I see this come up, because I understand sumo's more fun when we see big dudes collide really hard, but I just get a little tired of this idea that it's unacceptable for the guys who are risking their health to do this to sometimes, even in the big moments, use a strategy that doesn't result in maximum impact. Or at least the better guys—if a consistent sanyaku rikishi pulled a henka once or twice every basho, but they were able to maintain a career longer from reducing that contact, isn't that better for a sport that's surrounded by conversations about how nobody can stick at the top?

i'd say get used to it, it angers/disppoints a lot of people. They want to see participants not avoiding competing which is basically what a henka is.Especially in big moments and from the guys at the very top. Big moments don't come along enough to ever find such a move no big deal IMHO. Abi wasn't concerned about his health. he was concerned about losing.

 

[Kaioshoryu 62]

Nothing against Abi, but that was not the end I had hoped the basho would end. Abi won fair and square, but with a side order of extreme heartbreak for Takayasu. That's the nature of professional sports I guess, but sometimes you want that fairytale ending. 

[Katooshu 3,135]

Speaking of bad endings, Ichiyamamoto has a win overturned to a loss, putting him MK on the final day after a 6-3 start, and in the process injures himself falling from the dohyo 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Katooshu

[Godango 956]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

12-3 D with a loss to a maegashira though...

It's still 12-3 D and thus a yusho equivalent for an ozeki. 12-3 D likely wouldn't do it, but anything 13+ Y will start the convo.

[dingo 1,160]

Well, this end has left me with very confused feelings. 

On one hand, somewhat happy for Abi's first yusho. Just wish it would've come under different circumstances. To be honest, in the three-way playoff I was rooting the least for him. I just happen to like both Takas more. 

I'm totally devastated for Takayasu. This was an excellent chance to get his elusive yusho and he again failed to take the final step. Yes he has only himself to blame for not winning the last regulation bout, but the poor guy has been through so much that this yusho would've been a small consolation. All the more sad to see not only this chance slip away, but Takayasu getting potentially seriously injured. I wonder how many more chances will he have, and whether he is still able to take them, physically and mentally. 

Takakeisho, I would've expected more from him in the playoff. I'm sure he feels the same. A yusho would've been deserved as the lone remaining ozeki (and a good one) at the end of this year. I'm not convinced he would be a good yokozuna, and I'm not sure he'll ever reach that mark but he's got the pride, poise and ambition for that rank. Hope he'll continue as a strong ozeki next year and hopefully bag at least one yusho. 

[Godango 956]

This talk of Takayasu having suffered a mental collapse rather than a physical one is insane.

His head/neck was obviously caught in an awkward position, he was on the ground motionless for a short while, was unsteady on his feet and look dazed and confused the entire time. 

Concussion symptoms may include headache, confusion, lack of coordination, memory loss, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, ringing in the ears, sleepiness and excessive fatigue (ripped from google).

The obvious reality is:

• He was concussed
• He realised that not only did he lose the opening bout, but this concussion meant he was almost certain to lose any subsequent bouts (and thus the yusho) as well as risk his health
• The worst case scenario had happened, and the chance had passed him by again in the cruelest way. 

That is a devastating situation to be in. 

There is no 'or' here. He was concussed, AND emotionally destroyed. A mental collapse brought on by the physical one.

It just sucks.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Godango

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

51 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Speaking of bad endings, Ichiyamamoto has a win overturned to a loss, putting him MK on the final day after a 6-3 start, and in the process injures himself falling from the dohyo 

...and of course Azumaryu did *not* get his first KK in Makuuchi in his 8th attempt, despite going 7-5 for the second time.

[Sumo Spiffy 535]

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

i'd say get used to it, it angers/disppoints a lot of people. They want to see participants not avoiding competing which is basically what a henka is.Especially in big moments and from the guys at the very top. Big moments don't come along enough to ever find such a move no big deal IMHO. Abi wasn't concerned about his health. he was concerned about losing.

 

Fair enough, and I am getting used to it. I guess the thing that bugs me is the idea that, if you do it, you're not really trying or competing. Of course they're competing; they're giving themselves the best chance to win, as they see it. That's the definition of competing. It may not be the way other people want to see them compete, but that's a different matter.

My comment about health was in regards to complaints about the henka in general; of course Abi's main concern with a yusho on the line isn't his long-term health. But, similarly, he's trying everything he can to win, and the idea that putting yourself at a disadvantage by avoiding what may be your best tactical option because reasons is a good idea in a sport that, more than the vast majority, doles out rewards and consequences solely on the basis of wins and losses, seems deeply unfair.

[Kotomiyama 165]

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

While it may not have been a concussion, you don't really think Takayasu acted the way he did by frustration only? We sure came to know him better than that.

I did not said that there wasn't a concussion. I said that I was only able to see de mental impact on Takayasu. I was talking about my emotions, not what happened (and tried to be a little bit poetic in a language that I do not master).

There was a physical blow, that's undeniabe. But it wasn't the point of my post.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I've been watching the replay again and again, and I still have no clue what prompted Takayasu to collapse like he did. Smashing his head at an opponents chest (who is already retreating) has been part of his daily routine for years.

Perhaps I need another camera angle than abema's.

Injuries/the body doesn’t work like that though, especially as you age. I’ve pulled muscles in my back just shifting in my seat. Something catches and … that’s it. Just because Takayasu is used to butting heads doesn’t mean the next headbutt won’t be an issue. 

[dada78641 884]

Yeah, absolutely it was a real physical injury, not just Takayasu being sad. This guy's been a rikishi for longer than today, he's not gonna lie down on the dohyo throwing a fit just because he lost a bout, even if it was an important one. Let's not kid ourselves.

These guys are always on a knife's edge with the tachiai, especially when they go in head first. It's not at all surprising that something like this could happen, even if most of the time it goes well. It's like how a kachiage usually doesn't result in a KO, but... sometimes it does. It's actually more of a miracle that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,248]

44 minutes ago, Godango said:

This talk of Takayasu having suffered a mental collapse rather than a physical one is insane.

 

Its a big undercurrent for a lot of sumo fans to blame everything on mental struggles. You can even see it earlier in the thread where people wished that Shodai and Mitakeumi would have been beaten/hazed more earlier on to increase their mental fortitude. I have no idea why this is the first thing to jump to when these guys get injured all the time and end up fighting with injuries, especially in practice where none of us are watch, and a ranking system which has no DL. But I guess that is moot since Takayasu very clearly got hurt (whether it be concussion or popping his hamstring again) and people still jump to the mental game.

I have no idea why. And its not just a foreign fan thing, it pops up so often in Japanese comments too.

[Reonito 1,335]

I always wonder how Shodai's last two years would have gone if he hadn't injured his ankle in his first ozeki basho. And Mitakeumi injured his shoulder early in the May basho, and of course chose to fight the full 15 days with one arm, potentially with ongoing effects on his fitness. But it's somehow easier to claim that these fighters, who after all rose all the way to sumo's second-highest rank and won four yusho between them, are not mentally tough enough

[Koorifuu 886]

15 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

You can even see it earlier in the thread where people wished that Shodai and Mitakeumi would have been beaten/hazed more earlier on to increase their mental fortitude.

I really don't think any of us even came close to saying or thinking that.

[Hoshotakamoto 256]

2 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Speaking of bad endings, Ichiyamamoto has a win overturned to a loss, putting him MK on the final day after a 6-3 start, and in the process injures himself falling from the dohyo 

This turned my 7-6 win in Sumo Game to a 7-6 loss, AND I didn't realize they had overturned his result until I was about to call it a night and check in on my final standings in the contest. I rewatched the bout and I still didn't get it.