Banzuke for Aki 2022

[mt fuji 976]

This banzuke is wild but I'm excited to see the chaos that Tobizaru and Midorifuji will bring to the top match ups. Also really excited for Mitoryu, I was worried he was never gonna make it!

[Seiyashi 4,109]

20 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

new makuuchi Mitoryu, with Nishikido oyakata

Apropos of the jokes about Mitoryū and his jūryō tenure, anyone think Mitoryū looks like he's regretting getting promoted because he's going to lose a bet or something?

I wonder if Hōshōryū can finally clock his first DD KK in the sanyaku and properly start talk of his ōzeki potential. He's been looking better plus the M1 pair makes the joi look quite a lot weaker than last basho. The last times Tobizaru was anywhere this high he ate DD MKs, and this is Midorifuji's joi debut after all and he hasn't looked like the calibre of rikishi to really make a storming run up the ranks.

[Adz_517 21]

Tobizaru has just the best banzuke luck. 5 Mk straight from M2w (including 2 double digit loosing scores) only drop him to M9w and now back up to M1e with 2 small Kk (with another MK in between!  
 

Looking forward to see how Midorifuji does in his first trip to the joi.

[dingo 1,487]

On 29/08/2022 at 10:50, Nantonoyama said:

If they don't make clearer statements for next tournament, any guy with a bad start will be very keen to get covid (or a positive test, no matter if real)

This banzuke makes Shimanoumi look either very honourable or very stupid, depending on your point of view. 

[Nantonoyama 257]

2 hours ago, dingo said:

This banzuke makes Shimanoumi look either very honourable or very stupid, depending on your point of view. 

He didn't know. Now they all know.

[just_some_guy 308]

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

anyone think Mitoryū looks like he's regretting getting promoted because he's going to lose a bet or something?

 

My theory is that his favorite TV show is on during the Makuuchi matches so he had to stay in Juryo or he'd miss it. He screwed up big time winning that Juryo yusho last year but was lucky enough to get stopped at J1. This time he thought he was safe winning 9 matches at J4. He got reckless and this is what happens. Poor guy.

[Akinomaki 41,858]

Rare thing with Mitoryu - after ex-juryo Gokushindo had retired at the Natsu basho he's the only rikishi in the heya now, which is rare in itself, but that only one being in makuuchi is extra rare. Nishikido somehow tops the ambitious plan of Nishonoseki to bring all his deshi to sekitori, all his present deshi are in makuuchi.

[Sumo Spiffy 670]

On 29/08/2022 at 11:35, Rocks said:

Well, I figured that right, only I thought Ichinojo would get the sekiwake slot. Kind of weird they thought they needed to promote Hoshoryu when his only real sanyaku win was against fellow Komusubi Abi. You would think that if they felt they needed to promote Hoshoryu they would have just made a fourth Sekiwake slot for Ichinojo and gone with 2 Komusubi.

It's really not about how they viewed Hoshoryu as much as Daieisho. If Daieisho had been solidly considered to still be sekiwake, and Hoshoryu was thought worthy of an extra sekiwake slot, then Hoshoryu would be at S2E. The fact he got a "main" slot and Daieisho was pushed down looks, for whatever reason (presumably some level of debate over whether he had a "losing" record), like they couldn't agree on demoting him (for good reason) but felt that two "real" sekiwake were needed. Hoshoryu, having a KK at K1E, was simply the guy in position to be promoted.

[Chartorenji 243]

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Rare thing with Mitoryu - after ex-juryo Gokushindo had retired at the Natsu basho he's the only rikishi in the heya now, which is rare in itself, but that only one being in makuuchi is extra rare. Nishikido somehow tops the ambitious plan of Nishonoseki to bring all his deshi to sekitori, all his present deshi are in makuuchi.

does Nishi just not recruit anyone? Or is he trying to dismantle the heya and join Nishonoseki or someone? 

[ryafuji 825]

Mitoryu is the only one on the banzuke - Fujizumi is banzuke-gai but has not officially retired. Is it one of those cases where he's quit and the paperwork hasn't been handed in? 

Edited August 30, 2022 by ryafuji

[Pitinosato 127]

I think there is some logic in this Banzuke, even much logic.

In my understanding it is as much logic as possible.

I.e. Rikishi with no real KK could not climb up.

This was harsh for Kotonowaka and Ichiyamamoto (in Juryo even for Shimazuumi and Oshoma), but it looks like a "rule" for this Banzuke.

Most Rikishi with no MK when they went Kyujo kept their ranks (Tamawashi, Kotoeko....)

Those who were already MK when they went Kyujo lost some ranks (Endo, Okinoumi, Hokutofuji)

Tsurugisho was the exception, Endo was (very) lucky.

But in this situation I think it was not possible to please everyone - like in every Banzuke.

 

Pitinosato

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

On 30/08/2022 at 17:49, Chartorenji said:

does Nishi just not recruit anyone? Or is he trying to dismantle the heya and join Nishonoseki or someone? 

It’s a very long story about declining health, an opera singer, and a Canadian boy.

Lets just say the ongoing future of the heya has been way down his list of things to do for some years.

[Gurowake 4,154]

On 30/08/2022 at 17:49, Chartorenji said:

does Nishi just not recruit anyone? Or is he trying to dismantle the heya and join Nishonoseki or someone? 

If you were around for the days of the "Canadian boy" that the previous poster mentioned, you'd understand why more.  I don't fully remember all the details, but I do remember how much Brodi really was hosed by the situation.

[Chartorenji 243]

15 hours ago, Gurowake said:

If you were around for the days of the "Canadian boy" that the previous poster mentioned, you'd understand why more.  I don't fully remember all the details, but I do remember how much Brodi really was hosed by the situation.

ah yeah. He was hazed/bullied pretty hard right? 

[Benevolance 2,534]

Enough that they sought legal counsel. 

[Benevolance 2,534]

Okay, Asanoyama - he's sitting at Ms15e. This bizzaro banzuke (bizzban? bizzuke? ) withstanding, does he have mathematical odds of making juryo from this tournament's results? 

[maglor 132]

Assuming that his stable actually starts next basho and isn't forced out due to covid, the math is very clear. If he goes 7-0 he will be promoted. If he doesn't, he won't.

[Yamanashi 4,088]

6 hours ago, Benevolance said:

Okay, Asanoyama - he's sitting at Ms15e. This bizzaro banzuke (bizzban? bizzuke? ) withstanding, does he have mathematical odds of making juryo from this tournament's results? 

Historically, 7 out of 7 says he'll go to lower Juryo.  The only counterexample was a Ms15TD; as I understand from Those Who Know, leaping from Ms15TD to Juryo in one bout is not allowed.

[ryafuji 825]

9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Historically, 7 out of 7 says he'll go to lower Juryo.  The only counterexample was a Ms15TD; as I understand from Those Who Know, leaping from Ms15TD to Juryo in one bout is not allowed.

It's not that it's not allowed, it's that in the single previous case (Shimoda) there wasn't an opening. Both Ms 1s had winning records, and there were only two juryo rikishi with demotable records. It was stated at the time that the Ms 1s were ahead of him in the promotion queue. 

[Asashosakari 20,301]

There's also Daimanazuru's promotion from Ms16 indicating that it's still possible to get promoted from outside the top 15. It's simply that only 7-0's inside the top 15 ranks are getting special priority, while others further down (including Ms15Td, assuming the Shimoda case was actual precedent and not just a one-off) have to rely on the more general banzuke-making considerations.

[maglor 132]

Note that Daimanazuru's promotion was in the banzuke where they expanded Makuuchi and Juryo, otherwise I doubt he gets promoted.

[Gurowake 4,154]

6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

There's also Daimanazuru's promotion from Ms16 indicating that it's still possible to get promoted from outside the top 15. It's simply that only 7-0's inside the top 15 ranks are getting special priority, while others further down (including Ms15Td, assuming the Shimoda case was actual precedent and not just a one-off) have to rely on the more general banzuke-making considerations.

I'm not so sure about this in the present day.  The time where Takayoshitoshi and Enho were promoted from deep into Makushita they could have taken a 7-0 Ms17 (and it just so happens that said rikishi is Wakatakakage, so it wouldn't have backfired at all).  I think there's good reason to believe that Wakatakakage would have been ranked ahead of two who were promoted if they had stayed in Makushita, so I don't think that's an issue where they thought the ones they promoted deserved to be ranked higher - they simply didn't consider the Ms17 to be promotable at all.  It's been a long time since the situation that you mentioned, and things have changed.

That said, if they took a look at how close people were to the barriers, whether Ms5 or Ms15, it was clear that Wakatakakage was further from the barrier than Enho, while Takayoshitoshi's extra win made it hard to not promote him when promoting Enho, so maybe that's the method to the madness; the next choice in Daimanazuru's case is significantly further from the barrier.  I think the last one promoted in that basho was Hakuho or Sumanofuji, not Daimanazuru.  I think if there had been two less slots to fill, it would have been more indicative of what they'd do now, as in that case they were really low on reasonable candidates, even more so than with Wakatakakage, primarily due to having 4 more spots to fill than normal.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Gurowake

[Gurowake 4,154]

4 hours ago, maglor said:

Note that Daimanazuru's promotion was in the banzuke where they expanded Makuuchi and Juryo, otherwise I doubt he gets promoted.

Certainly the three I mentioned and Hamanishiki would have been the ones not promoted if they didn't need the extra slots, but whether those slots were needed are not only determines just how desperate they are, not whether they think it's possible at all that they could promote a 7-0 at Ms16 or Ms17.  With the Wakatakakage case, there's reason to believe (though I now have my doubts now thinking about it more, as explained above) that they simply won't do it now.

[Reonito 1,793]

I guess I knew the Juryo banzuke was pretty wacky, but I don't think I'd appreciated just how wacky. At nearby ranks, Azumaryu (4-7-4) went down half a rank, Tohakuryu (3-8-4) went down 1 rank, Daishoho (4-9-2) went down ... 5 ranks? What? Even the non-kyujo promotions/demotions seem all over the place...

[Kishinoyama 625]

2 hours ago, Reonito said:

 Even the non-kyujo promotions/demotions seem all over the place...

No kidding!

A J8e gets promoted to Maegashira 16w with a 10-5 record while a J13w gets promoted to J9e with an 11-4 record. "Banzuke luck"....