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Reonito

Sumo Talk revisited (split from another unrelated topic)

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19 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Sounds a bit conspiracist to me. More likely than not, the only credit Chris can take is to finally make the NSK aware of the fact that there was a large English audience for sumo content, and the NSK would rather collaborate with a known quantity to produce that content under their control than to partner up with someone they don't know from Adam.

And whose commentary can stray uncomfortably close to SumoTalk territory.

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30 minutes ago, Reonito said:

And whose commentary can stray uncomfortably close to SumoTalk territory.

I'd say you nailed that one perfectly, sir. I was just saying that to myself this morning whilst eating my cornflakes.

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I came close to drawing the Sumotalk comparison maybe a year and a half ago on Reddit but thought better of it at the last moment, when the Chris Gould hype was at maximum cringe over there (nowadays it has swung way in the opposite direction if anything). The even then already increasingly off the wall opinions combined with the rabid fanbase, it had all the hallmarks of where Sumotalk eventually went - a sizable amount of loyalists, but ignored-to-shunned by nearly all the rest of sumo's fandom. Would be unfortunate if he ended up in that purgatory, but if anything I'm stunned that he seems to be ahead of the schedule I envisioned back then.

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At the risk of opening a can of worms, what was SumoTalk and what happened to it? 

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It's another English language sumo fan community. Not so much a forum but more a newsletter. Kind of like Tachi-ai. But...their commentators really don't seem to like sumo that much. Their front page is currently about a "conspiracy" to keep the Japanese ozeki in place by somehow getting everybody else in makuuchi to lose. Makes no sense, but they devote a lot of thought to that kind of nonsense.

Apparently they used to have a presence here but don't show their faces...er...avatars here anymore. It was a little before my time but it seems they don't like being challenged on their BS.

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12 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

It's another English language sumo fan community. Not so much a forum but more a newsletter. Kind of like Tachi-ai. But...their commentators really don't seem to like sumo that much. Their front page is currently about a "conspiracy" to keep the Japanese ozeki in place by somehow getting everybody else in makuuchi to lose. Makes no sense, but they devote a lot of thought to that kind of nonsense.

Apparently they used to have a presence here but don't show their faces...er...avatars here anymore. It was a little before my time but it seems they don't like being challenged on their BS.

Yeeesh. That said, if by Japanese ōzeki they meant the Dejima to Gōeidō era, it's understandable they eventually latched on that opinion.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeeesh. That said, if by Japanese ōzeki they meant the Dejima to Gōeidō era, it's understandable they eventually latched on that opinion.

Nope. According to them, almost the whole Nagoya makuuchi effort this year was yaocho to keep the current ozeki in place and...whatever it is they are trying to say went on with Terunofuji and Ichinojo.

This is the first time in years I looked at their site and...it'll be awhile before I go back. Life is too short.

Edited by Churaumi

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Posted (edited)

I've never understood the presence of so many 'fans' whose interest in the sport seems to be complaining about how poorly everything is handled and how every other happening is a conspiracy. Sumo has a greater proportion of these fans than any other sport I've followed.

Do they actually get enjoyment from the action on the dohyo? There are some fans who hardly have anything positive to say about that. It seems like self-flagellation to follow something that so constantly annoys you....

Edited by Katooshu
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Ok, what the flameo. That's just bonkers.

I went back to their article to make sure I wasn't overselling the kookiness but no, their opinion only works if almost every match is planned ahead of time.

Also, nice Avatar reference.

21 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

I've never understood the presence of so many 'fans' whose interest in the sport seems to be complaining about how poorly everything is handled and how everything is a conspiracy. Do they actually get enjoyment from the action on the dohyo?

I don't get them either. The NSK is open to all kinds of criticism, from hazing to injury response, how rikishi are compensated, and on and on. We do it on this forum all the time. But, why bother if you think the organization is as broken and corrupt as they do? If they just love the sport but hate the Kyokai, they could focus on amateur sumo and lift up those athletes rather than disrespect the professionals.

Edited by Churaumi
The Fire Nation needs more exploration on the show
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

At the risk of opening a can of worms, what was SumoTalk and what happened to it? 

In short, the site was a really big deal starting some 20 years ago, because they were the only ones dedicated to writing detailed match summaries in an era when it was very hard to get video coverage unless you either lived in Japan, or paid for TV Japan / NHK World Premium, or were able to align your life schedule with the broadcast of the Kyokai's grainy live stream. People were also doing summaries here and on the old Sumo Mailing List, but only intermittently and not anywhere near as focused as Sumotalk's writers did.

Unfortunately, their most prolific writers were the type of foreigners-living-in-Japan who think they know everything better than their hosts do, which got expressed in a massive pushing of a Japan / the Kyokai vs. the World narrative in their sumo stuff. That first led to them being some of the world's biggest Asashoryu apologists during his various misadventures, and after he was forced out of sumo, they went off the conspiratorial deep end altogether. At some point their remaining audience became essentially cut off entirely from the rest of the international sumo fandom. I have no idea how much of a following they have these days.

Around the same time as Asa's exit we also started to get much better video from the Kyokai for free for a few years - ironically because of low popularity (NHK BS ceased broadcasting from jonokuchi to sandanme, so the Kyokai had to step in) as well as scandal (NHK refused to broadcast Nagoya 2010 altogether after the gambling scandal) - which probably contributed to Sumotalk's marginalization over time. Since they were mentioned as a modern-day version: For as good as Tachiai's written tournament coverage is, relative to the overall "marketplace" of sumo content, Sumotalk was a much, much bigger player in its heyday.

Edited by Asashosakari
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Sumotalk claims to provide "Expert Sumo Analysis", but the comments that Sumo Forum members have made are right-on.  Their whole emphasis is on conspiracies.  It's really strange how fixated they are on them.

This is what they say about themselves --- "The tone and style of Sumotalk has drawn criticism for its abrasiveness, arrogance, and irreverence, but the website was born from the emails of two friends who never shied away from telling it as they saw it while running a little smack and trash-talking along the way.  To our critics we say, 'we talk about sumo, you talk about us,' and to our fans (both of you) we say 'thanks mom and dad!'"

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I wasn´t aware of "that other site/forum" (as it was called here :-)) until after the yaocho scandal broke. Back then, they where already obsessed and they were writing as if everything was as meticulously scripted as if the kyokai was actually a WWE division.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

In short, the site was a really big deal starting some 20 years ago, because they were the only ones dedicated to writing detailed match summaries in an era when it was very hard to get video coverage unless you either lived in Japan, or paid for TV Japan / NHK World Premium, or were able to align your life schedule with the broadcast of the Kyokai's grainy live stream. People were also doing summaries here and on the old Sumo Mailing List, but only intermittently and not anywhere near as focused as Sumotalk's writers did.

 

And of course they claimed Hakuhou would never be allowed to break Taiho's 32 yusho record.. Among other things.

Edited by Kintamayama
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I used to check ST out of curiosity or for laughs back when Kaio and Chiyotaikai were still busy with their OSBC. I'd forgotten about that place altogether for a long time, but reading this thread I'm amazed that they basically haven't changed for 15 years. That takes a lot of effort. 

Regarding Chris's YouTube channel, I've never followed it too much but since I was not around to see ST becoming what it has become, it seems to me that at least I can sort of witness the second coming of ST. Sort of fascinating in a way. 

I'll be happy to follow Morita-san's new endeavours, more Kyokai-sanctioned English coverage is always good and might lead to even better things. 

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ST used to be provocative and entertaining in small doses. Until about a year ago they had a small group of contributors who commented on days at the sumo in a sort of rotation, but then the others have dropped away leaving just Mike Wesemann. Mike is very knowledgeable but extremely cynical: he thinks that at least 90% of top division bouts are fixed and that if you don't agree with him you are either a liar or a fool. His tone can be tiresomely patronising and negative... but that doesn't mean that he's wrong.

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Was it Mike who claimed there was even yaocho in keiko (Laughing...)

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55 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Was it Mike who claimed there was even yaocho in keiko (Laughing...)

Watching wrestlers pull the same inexplicable moves in training as they do in a basho is a good corrective to seeing everything through a yaocho lens.

I'm thinking particularly of Aoiyama in the last joint keiko when after dominating the first bout with forward momentum he resorted to pulling (and losing) in the second.

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Posted (edited)

You know, the title of this thread gives little clue as to the content.

Edited by RabidJohn
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12 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

ST used to be provocative and entertaining in small doses. Until about a year ago they had a small group of contributors who commented on days at the sumo in a sort of rotation, but then the others have dropped away leaving just Mike Wesemann. Mike is very knowledgeable but extremely cynical: he thinks that at least 90% of top division bouts are fixed and that if you don't agree with him you are either a liar or a fool. His tone can be tiresomely patronising and negative... but that doesn't mean that he's wrong.

He's wrong. 

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On 31/07/2022 at 06:00, Churaumi said:

It's another English language sumo fan community. Not so much a forum but more a newsletter. Kind of like Tachi-ai. But...their commentators really don't seem to like sumo that much. Their front page is currently about a "conspiracy" to keep the Japanese ozeki in place by somehow getting everybody else in makuuchi to lose. Makes no sense, but they devote a lot of thought to that kind of nonsense.

Apparently they used to have a presence here but don't show their faces...er...avatars here anymore. It was a little before my time but it seems they don't like being challenged on their BS.

So, would you like to talk to me about anything?

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17 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

So, would you like to talk to me about anything?

Yes. where have you been lately?

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8 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Yes. where have you been lately?

I traveled to Utah and tried to talk (pun intended) sense into Mike. A very long process and I failed.

Apart from that? There's this life thing going on. That peciuliar entity sends me avatars regularly, calling themselves strange names like "wife" and "children". It's all very confusing. But I'm lurking around, no worries. But it's a slippery slope. If I don't pay attention, I lose the basis for prticipating meaningfully. If that happens, engagement becomes less, etc.

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5 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

So, would you like to talk to me about anything?

Didn't know you were part of that. I guess I'd ask why so negative about the Kyokai all the time? There's plenty to critique that doesn't involve some of frankly outlandish claims that get made on there. If the organization is that corrupt, why bother following it?

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1 minute ago, Churaumi said:

There's plenty to critique that doesn't involve some of frankly outlandish claims that get made on there.

Injury/health management foremost among those, for starters.

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