Aki 2022 discussion (results)

[Seiyashi 4,071]

44 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Even then they could still be in it if Tamawashi and Takayasu both go into senshuraku with the same records as today (11-2 and 10-3) and then Takayasu wins to end 11-3 and take it to a playoff, which some of the 9-4 guys could join if they win out til Sunday. 

Think you're off by a loss in those numbers except the 9-4.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

Day 13 done, also called Henka Day. Takakeisho caused quite a domino effect: his victim from yesterday, Hokutofuji, did a HNH on Tobizaru, while Wakatakakage performed a good 'ole henka on the Hamster himself. Hope Chiyoshoma is not going to join the party tomorrow. He oddly missed the festivity today.

That's not much to be said. Tamawashi looks as strong as a bull and appears unlikely do drop much in the last two days. Tomorrow he will face Tobizaru (precedents 1-2 for the Monkey) but I am personally skeptical that the Old Fox is going to drop one here. His eventual win also means that the four losses guy are going to leave the arasoi. This also puts some extra pressure on the runner-ups. Takayasu seems pretty much a Tamawashi with extra fur (Collectors Edition TM), so I am prone to believe he will run over Hoshoryu (their precedents are also 4-1 for Papa Bear). Hokutofuji is less Ironman than the other two, and could leave the stage tomorrow by losing against Wakatakakage (3-1 for the latter).

Most important, tomorrow's schedule for Day 14 is bewildering unbalanced. I mean, the closing bout is... Takarafuji vs. Shodai?! Seriously?!? I get that the san'yaku are doing poorly and the Committee moved to an approach based on results, yet... Also, that's not the only over-sketched pairing on schedule. Actually, a M5e fighting an Ozeki is not that absurd. Much worse is the completely useless Takakeisho vs. Nishikifuji, an Ozeki getting a M10e while both of them are virtually out of contention. Miracles of two Ozeki deemed unworthy to do their job. Both Shodai and Mitakeumi have in fact alternative opponents, the latter facing desperate KK-chaser Endo (good luck, Mita).

Day 14 pairing also tell us a lot about what are we can imagine to get Day 15. Tamawashi vs. Takayasu, for starters. The others will be likely paired by result instead of ranking. Hokutofuji, will perhaps get M2e Kotonowaka (already KK) instead of KK-chasing Hoshoryu. Wakatakakage... possibly Nishikifuji. The most difficult to place is Takakeisho, as his prospected fellow Ozeki opponents will be likely placed against some desperate MK lower Maegashira. The Hamster has basically run the whole joy, yusho hopefuls included. Perhaps he will get M5w Sadanoumi (already KK), or M6e Wakamotoharu (again KK and likely to get 9-5 against a melting down Oho tomorrow).

Au contraire, today all the leaders got gifted their wins - all they had to do was not lose. Both Tobizaru and Nishikifuji botched their tachiais and went low, making it super easy for Hokutofuji and Tamawashi to divert them down and to the ground - I wouldn't call what they did a HNH by any measure. I have less of an idea what happened to Kiribayama - looked like he may have temporarily pulled or "buzzed" something, because Takayasu didn't seem to hit him anywhere near as hard as would be necessary to cause a knee to buckle. But either way, as Herouth pointed out, those were not the only mistakes in makuuchi today; Ura also screwed up his henka and there was a lot of less than impressive sumo generally going around.

Regarding the scheduling, Kumegawa did say it was harder to do matchups this time. The Takarafuji-Shōdai bout isn't oversketched, it's the natural result of an ōzeki's turn to take the musubi in the absence of a yokozuna (the "senior" ōzeki rotates between Takakeishō, Shōdai and Mitakeumi so day 14 is Shōdai's turn) combined with an absolutely underperforming ōzeki, so he's just simply the lowest priority and gets given the leftovers since better opponents are needed for the yūshō leaders and the performing sanyaku. And don't forget that only Day 15 bouts can take into account the arasoi at the end of the previous day; torikumi arranged before that are based on the arasoi prior to the bouts of the day before.

I think if Hōshōryū is still chasing his KK he might get Hokutofuji on day 15. Most of the names listed are irrelevant if Tamawashi wins tomorrow, since then only Hokutofuji, Takayasu, and Tamawashi are mathematically in it. Don't forget Day 15 matches are usually made after Day 14 results, so the torikumi makers might have a much easier job if only three rikishi are in contention and only their bouts need to be chosen carefully.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

Much worse is the completely useless Takakeisho vs. Nishikifuji, an Ozeki getting a M10e while both of them are virtually out of contention.

They weren't when the torikumi was announced.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Updated query of shame.

[Hankegami 412]

7 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

They weren't when the torikumi was announced.

Yes, I know. I mentioned that in passing. My point was that, with Shodai and Mitakeumi not doing their job, pairings have become really unlikely. Moreover, Takakeisho as senior Ozeki and only well-performing one is basically carrying Yokozuna duties. Giving him a M10e was an outstretching move, which I'd say it backfired at this point.

Just to be clear, I am not putting ashes on my head over this torikumi. I was just aghast by what the Committee was forced to pull out for Day 14.

[nagora 88]

I wonder how Abi's feeling about sitting this one out now?

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Think you're off by a loss in those numbers except the 9-4.

Right, end 11-4, I mean, not 11-3. If Tamawashi (now 11-2) and Takayasu (now 10-3) both lose tomorrow and then Takayasu wins their expected H2H on Sunday, they’ll both end on 11-4 which could lead to at least a playoff between them, possibly joined by Hokutofuji depending on his results, and/or any of the 9-4s who win their final two bouts.  There are quite a lot of possible permutations to the weekend finale.

[Suwihuto 125]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Right, end 11-4, I mean, not 11-3. If Tamawashi (now 11-2) and Takayasu (now 10-3) both lose tomorrow and then Takayasu wins their expected H2H on Sunday, they’ll both end on 11-4 which could lead to at least a playoff between them, possibly joined by Hokutofuji depending on his results, and/or any of the 9-4s who win their final two bouts.  There are quite a lot of possible permutations to the weekend finale.

That would certainly be fun, but I'd be amazed if Tamawashi didn't get at least one more win. It would be harder to lose from here, especially with the limited opposition.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

16 minutes ago, Suwihuto said:

That would certainly be fun, but I'd be amazed if Tamawashi didn't get at least one more win. It would be harder to lose from here, especially with the limited opposition.

Even if he wins only one, tomorrow, we may still get a playoff if Takayasu also wins tomorrow and then beats Tamawashi in the H2H on Sunday. They’d both end 12-3 then. Hokutofuji can also win twice to end 12-3 for a three-way playoff. We always get denied those, but the schedulers can’t work it to avoid the possibility this time. Hokutofuji has already faced Tamawashi and Takayasu. It’s in his hands to force the playoff if Tamawashi slips up once. Plenty of what ifs to keep an eye on!

[Yamanashi 3,728]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Did Wakatakakage get a high five from Hokutofuji in the shitaku-beya?

Arashio Oyakata: "Yo, Wakatakakage, there's a package for you!"

Wakatakakage: "Eh? What is it?"

Arashio: "It seems to be a giant fruit basket.  The card says 'Arigato Sekitori-san.  From Nakamura Daiki."

[Old Shatterhand is dead 29]

Karmakeisho.

[dingo 1,160]

6 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I'd honestly probably find the whole thing morbidly hilarious if it wasn't for the fact he might just raise the temperature around ex-Hakuho to unbearable levels.

Time to take out the Mongolian beer bottle?

[Tochinofuji 372]

7 minutes ago, dingo said:

Time to take out the Mongolian beer bottle?

This may warrant the full karaoke treatment. 

[Seiyashi 4,071]

47 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

56 minutes ago, dingo said:

Time to take out the Mongolian beer bottle?

This may warrant the full karaoke treatment. 

Not the best time to make this joke, but it feels like sumo needs to establish a baseline acceptable hairdryer treatment. Definitely physical abuse is out of the question, but there needs to be something that will make a lesson stick in a recalcitrant's head without crossing accepted boundaries. Ōtani has to be setting some sort of record to get scolded twice in one basho, but it's the reported cockiness in the hanamichi which worries me much more - it implies whatever is being said to him is going out the other ear as quickly as it came in.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

Is it just me who doesn't see anything severely out of line with Otani's behaviour? Sure, he has the charisma of a pickled quince, and these shoves might be deemed unnecessary, yet still part of the flow. Nothing like his shisho was grilled for a brief period of time.

[dingo 1,160]

17 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Is it just me who doesn't see anything severely out of line with Otani's behaviour? Sure, he has the charisma of a pickled quince, and these shoves might be deemed unnecessary, yet still part of the flow. Nothing like his shisho was grilled for a brief period of time.

If he's like this now, what's he gonna do once he reaches the higher ranks? Try to oneup the Taka-twins? 

[Tochinofuji 372]

30 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Not the best time to make this joke, but it feels like sumo needs to establish a baseline acceptable hairdryer treatment. Definitely physical abuse is out of the question, but there needs to be something that will make a lesson stick in a recalcitrant's head without crossing accepted boundaries. Ōtani has to be setting some sort of record to get scolded twice in one basho, but it's the reported cockiness in the hanamichi which worries me much more - it implies whatever is being said to him is going out the other ear as quickly as it came in.

Agreed. No offence was meant by the joke, but I appreciate it may be taken as in poor taste. Sumo walks a tough line - too harsh on the discipline side is no longer acceptable (which is for the better in my books, both for sumo and for society), but a certain degree of perceived force is often required in such a physically tough environment. I feel like the classic military style of assigned manual labour around the Kokugikan, heya, etc., is likely the best that can be done with some candidates, along with suspension in short order.

I also feel like Otani may need to be a bit of a test case. If you're being told off twice in one basho and it seems to have no effect, maybe you should sit out the next one. Hell, for this sort of behaviour I'd say a current and retroactive suspension of sorts would be helpful. We count this tournament as all losses for banzuke purposes, your yusho is revoked and playoffs done as necessary among the jun yusho takers to find the official yusho taker, and maybe you try not to be quite so outrageous next time. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Tochinofuji
Inserting paragraph break

[Koorifuu 886]

25 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Is it just me who doesn't see anything severely out of line with Otani's behaviour? Sure, he has the charisma of a pickled quince, and these shoves might be deemed unnecessary, yet still part of the flow. Nothing like his shisho was grilled for a brief period of time.

The boldened part is rather debatable, but nonetheless, none of these three events would've been a problem by themselves.

The problem here is the quickfire repetition. It took him two bouts to double down on something an oyakata had already warned him against, earning himself another warning. And he immediately proceeded to break another unwritten behavioral rule on his way out from Round 2. This demonstrates utter unwillingness to take advice from those he really ought to, if he's to stay in ozumo. This is also apparently the kind of reputation he already had in the amasumo world, so it's a longstanding issue and therefore less likely to soothen any time soon.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Koorifuu

[Seiyashi 4,071]

13 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

This is also apparently the kind of reputation he already had in the amasumo world, so it's a longstanding issue and therefore less likely to soothen any time soon.

To add to this, I seem to recall that Hokuseihō had a bit of a dameoshi problem early in his career as well, but it wasn't anywhere near as blatant, and Hokuseihō has the benefit of being a lot younger and therefore more... "teachable", even without accounting for prior habits. Ōtani is on the wrong side of 20, clearly looks like he couldn't give a damn about the teaching, and has nowhere near the same general demeanor of lumbering but earnest innocence that Hokuseihō has. 

A saying regarding old dogs (which Ōtani certainly looks the part) and new tricks comes to mind. That, or leopards and spots. I mean, I'd be very happy if he does change, but if he doesn't, he's entirely the wrong kind of geological feature for Hakuhō to die on or for, and I worry more for Hakuhō's reputation than Ōtani himself.

Yes, there was a bilingual pun.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

23 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

No offence was meant by the joke,

To be clear I think your joke about the Harumafuji incident went down fine with me. I screwed up by not being specific about the joke I meant - it was my failed allusion to Alex Ferguson's hairdryer treatments in the Manchester United dressing rooms, in which apparently boots could go flying, and I didn't want to be seen as implicitly encouraging throwing things at deshi.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Katooshu 3,135]

Most unsportsmanlike competitor on the college scene, and talked to multiple times by the shimp in his first tournament on the banzuke.....he's a bad apple. Sure, there have been much worse late shoves (like those he gave in college), but they were still unnecessary vs totally overmatched jonokuchi level opposition, and they're part of a broader trend.

Kaiho, who is now a coach at Nihon University, also gave him a talking to after an unsportsmanlike incident in college. Now Tochinonada and Kaio have given them to him. How many more of these before he learns?

It should be noted that as an amateur, he was by far the most unsportsmanlike when someone gave him a tough bout, so if he's acting this way at jonokuchi, be prepared for much worse if he doesn't get his act together.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Katooshu

[dingo 1,160]

In todays bouts, Tsurugishou couldn't have telegraphed his stumble more even if he had sent Chiyotairyuu a written notice the day before. This will be sumo school material on an OSO (obvious slapdown opportunity) for all the new joiners.

And it's been mentioned already, but seems like Takakeisho managed to inspire lots of other rikishi with his sumo. Including Wakatakakage... 

[Fashiritētā 169]

1 minute ago, Katooshu said:

Most unsportsmanlike competitor on the college scene, and talked to multiple times by the shimp in his first tournament on the banzuke.....he's a bad apple. Sure, there have been much worse late shoves, but they were still unnecessary vs totally overmatched jonokuchi level opposition, and they're part of a broader trend.

As an amateur, former Kaiho, who is now a coach at Nihon University, gave him a talking to as well after an unsportsmanlike incident. How many more of these before he learns?

Until he seriously injures someone , he will continue, that’s what bullies do. 
In the military he would have received a blanket party for his actions.

[Yamanashi 3,728]

9 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Updated query of shame.

1972: and six (6!) Jun-Yusho

[Barutokai 62]

@Otani I think Hakuho knew what kind of character this guy has.

I hope Hakuho knows a good answer to that too.

@1972: no playoff wow.

Well since it's statistically possible all upper Sanyaku can lose several days in a Basho it had to happen. I call them therefore the Murphy('s law) Group.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Barutokai