Aki 2022 discussion (results)

[Seiyashi 4,107]

7 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Proper Spanish Inquisition move from Takakeisho - got to be one of the most out-of-the-blue henka I've ever seen.
I didn't much care for it, but I appreciated the follow-up pantomime villain glares at the audience.

I couldn't believe Mitakeumi showed up today - what a daft bugger.

Tobizaru threatening double digits at M1, but he's going to be stuck there regardless, isn't he?

I enjoyed the henka for entertainment value - it's a rare move by Takakeishō, perhaps showing off his agility, although he probably just wanted to secure his 8 with minimal fuss. Can certainly see why some quarters are up in arms about it, though.

Mitakeumi at least put up something of a fight against Nishikigi. Better than Shōdai, who basically just showed up to be practice ballast for Hōshōryū's "Kubinage 101" class.

If he yūshōs, it's straightforward. Tobizaru will either take Ichinojō's regular komusubi slot if both Daieishō and Hōshōryū KK, or force at least an extra komusubi slot even if one of the falling sekiwake take it. If he doesn't, then it depends on the mercy of the shimpan. With other strong records in the joi it would be easy to justify an extra pair of both S2 and K2, but having 8 junior sanyaku is something that has happened only 4 times ever in 1961-1962, so I don't know if that's a bridge too far for the banzuke committee. I've just put up today's promotion/demotion analysis so maybe you might be interested in having a look for further details.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

Some formal/official reactions about the basho and the Takakeishō - Hokutofuji bout:

Hakkaku says the messy arasoi is what happens when there are no strong yokozuna or ōzeki. It's ok once in a while but when it's every basho...

Shimpan Kumegawa says that it's difficult to organise the torikumi because the top (i.e. the sanyaku) isn't stable.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202209220001273.html

On the henka, Hakkaku says Hokutofuji was slow, and chalks down the henka to Takakeishō wanting to secure his KK, although he hopes that there will be better sumo. 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202209220001278.html

Takekuma (ex-Gōeidō), Mainoumi, and Kumegawa weren't as charitable. The first two, commentating, said the actual sumo wasn't good, and Kumegawa said he was disappointed with an ōzeki wrestling like that.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Leo C 52]

Didn't Enho and Chiyomaru have the exact same match last basho?

[rhyen 1,844]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Proper Spanish Inquisition move from Takakeisho - got to be one of the most out-of-the-blue henka I've ever seen.
I didn't much care for it, but I appreciated the follow-up pantomime villain glares at the audience.

I couldn't believe Mitakeumi showed up today - what a daft bugger.

Tobizaru threatening double digits at M1, but he's going to be stuck there regardless, isn't he?

He is M1e, he already forced a promotion with a KK. 
just a matter of sekiwake or komosubi 

[hakutorizakura 643]

What a move by Shodai! Nice somersault 

Takakeisho must have made a secret deal with Tamawashi. You know they are often seen in some dark corners of Kokugikan. I suspect he was promised half of Tama's impending yusho/sansho prize money, or a stash of freshly baked Tama cookies. 

[Seregost 132]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Some formal/official reactions about the basho and the Takakeishō - Hokutofuji bout:

Hakkaku says the messy arasoi is what happens when there are no strong yokozuna or ōzeki. It's ok once in a while but when it's every basho...

Shimpan Kumegawa says that it's difficult to organise the torikumi because the top (i.e. the sanyaku) isn't stable.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202209220001273.html

On the henka, Hakkaku says Hokutofuji was slow, and chalks down the henka to Takakeishō wanting to secure his KK, although he hopes that there will be better sumo. 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202209220001278.html

Takekuma (ex-Gōeidō), Mainoumi, and Kumegawa weren't as charitable. The first two, commentating, said the actual sumo wasn't good, and Kumegawa said he was disappointed with an ōzeki wrestling like that.

At least Goeido wasn't complaining about the henka, that would have been... funny, to say the least.

[dingo 1,281]

1 hour ago, hakutorizakura said:

What a move by Shodai! Nice somersault 

Takakeisho must have made a secret deal with Tamawashi. You know they are often seen in some dark corners of Kokugikan. I suspect he was promised half of Tama's impending yusho/sansho prize money, or a stash of freshly baked Tama cookies. 

Hopefully not kintama cookies 

And to be fair Shodai did pretty well, almost forcing Hoshoryuu out until he pulled that kubinage as a last second move. 

[Reonito 1,507]

7 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Tobizaru threatening double digits at M1, but he's going to be stuck there regardless, isn't he?

It would be completely unprecedented not to promote him with a KK at M1e, and there are plenty of instances of this happening even when extra slots had to be created, including last basho for 8-7 Kiribayama.

[Akinomaki 40,703]

23 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

23 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Mitakeumi is only joint 6th in speedy drop after promotion, Takakeisho is joint top. Most of them (☆) made it back though.

o

Well, Itsutsushima duly retired immediately after losing the rank upon his two MK, so he never really tried to get his rank back due to a bad knee. After crashing out from a 7-2 score into six consecutive losses, no less. Different times.

Definitely different. Under the present kaboban system since Nagoya 1969, Mitakeumi is 4th worst (another unlucky 4), all other 3 made it back at once.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

4 minutes ago, Reonito said:

It would be completely unprecedented not to promote him with a KK at M1e, and there are plenty of instances of this happening even when extra slots had to be created, including last basho for 8-7 Kiribayama.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=m1e&form1_wins=8-15&form2_rank=m

Not exactly completely unprecedented, but yeah those examples are so old they might as well not exist.

[Reonito 1,507]

3 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&form1_rank=m1e&form1_wins=8-15&form2_rank=m

Not exactly completely unprecedented, but yeah those examples are so old they might as well not exist.

I think we can discount everything from the pre-15 day era, and the handful of others is both very old and exclusively 8-7.

[Kashunowaka 300]

I think that the henka from Takakeisho was *fantastic* too watch.

My memory might serve me wrong, but from what I recall there were more henkas in the 90s when I started watching sumo on Eurosport. You rarely expect it nowadays, which makes it all the more effective.

[Gurowake 4,096]

8 hours ago, rhyen said:

He is M1e, he already forced a promotion with a KK. 
just a matter of sekiwake or komosubi 

The two normal sekiwake slots are already spoken for, and if Daieisho didn't get to Sekiwake with a 13-2 Yusho from M1w, I don't see Tobizaru getting there with a 12-3 from M1e.  Thus I think it's almost certain that he's going to be Komusubi.

Also, @rhyen and @Reonito, one (or both) of you need to get a real avatar.  I was momentarily very confused when you both posted a response to that post saying the same thing.  Your default avatars were given nearly identical colors and the same letter.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Gurowake

[Kotomiyama 174]

Takakeisho's henka? A perfectly executed and legal move and yet a disappointing action by an Ozeki.

[Fashiritētā 184]

3 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

Takakeisho's henka? A perfectly executed and legal move and yet a disappointing action by an Ozeki.

It was a thing of beauty, Hokutofujis expression was priceless, like someone had stolen his favorite toy.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Fashiritētā

[Reonito 1,507]

15 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Also, @rhyen and @Reonito, one (or both) of you need to get a real avatar.  I was momentarily very confused when you both posted a response to that post saying the same thing.  Your default avatars were given nearly identical colors and the same letter.

Okay, I added one, at least for now.

[Tigerboy1966 1,455]

I didn't think there was anything amusing about TKS's henka. It was a disgraceful move for an ozeki to employ against a M8.

[Godango 1,014]

I wasn't going to join the henka discussion (cos I think others have nailed it) but I can't help myself.

It was a spectacular henka, used to great effect. In hindsight, Hokutofuji should have seen it coming. He's fighting a 7 win ozeki who has just seen his peers being kadoban/demoted. He'd be desperate for a win to keep his rank. Why Takakeisho did it is understandable.

However, he (nor I) saw it coming, because no ozeki SHOULD fight like that, let alone the strongest one we have at the moment. In a weakened field, we should be expecting Takakeisho to be fighting for the yusho every time, not henka-ing against an M8 to secure kachi-koshi on Day 11.

The Kyokai response doesn't surprise me. Pretty much "Oh good, we can't lose all our ozeki. But you know, don't make a habit of that".

So I dunno if I know the answer. I don't begrudge Takakeisho for doing it, and I'd be surprised if we see him do it again.

Tochinoshin's henka over Kakuryu on day 14 in Nagoya 2019 comes to mind. It was his 10th win to re-earn Ozeki, but handed the yusho to Asanoyama while eliminating Kakuryu. Easier to swallow with a yokozuna opponent, sure, but arguably more egregious given it definitely decided the yusho.

[Bakayokozuna 52]

I never liked henka... i always feel like as spectators we are robbed of a bout when it happens. 

So many guys in the race with 3 days to go. Maybe we get a playoff, that would be fun.

But if so please no henka in the play off.  

[Yarimotsu 588]

I laughed at Hokuseiho more than I laughed at Takakeisho, but it was close. Anyway, hopefully they both put in a better effort today.

[Yamanashi 3,888]

Re: Takakeisho's henka

Absolutely surprised me.  I didn't even think he knew how to do one.  Did he practice it secretly back at the heya?

I also didn't like it at all.  The need-to-KK argument doesn't fly, as he has enough chances to get it before the end of the basho.

Sure Hokutofuji was surprised.  He expected the last working Ozeki to show some pride., especially against an M8 trying to win a dream Yusho.

Maybe some better practitioners of the maneuver will explain things to Takakeisho over the next couple of basho.

[WAKATAKE 2,671]

Keisho's henka reminded me of:

1. Terunofuji's desperate attempt to stay in the yusho race several years ago, costing the Geek his ozeki return
2. Hakuho side stepping Harumafuji instead of facing him head to avoid the playoff had he lost

The robbery of a great potential match and it makes me wish that he loses the rest of his matches to finish 8-7

[Reonito 1,507]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

Re: Takakeisho's henka

Absolutely surprised me.  I didn't even think he knew how to do one.  Did he practice it secretly back at the heya?

I also didn't like it at all.  The need-to-KK argument doesn't fly, as he has enough chances to get it before the end of the basho.

Sure Hokutofuji was surprised.  He expected the last working Ozeki to show some pride., especially against an M8 trying to win a dream Yusho.

Maybe some better practitioners of the maneuver will explain things to Takakeisho over the next couple of basho.

Barring an epic Hokutofuji collapse, he should be ranked high enough in November for them to meet again...

[Benevolance 2,508]

Shodai showing the Ozeki Pride by putting up the same sort of numbers as Tamawashi. A different order, sure. But it's the same numbers.

[Kaninoyama 1,815]

Usually not a fan of henkas, much less one by an Ozeki against a yusho contender, but Hokutofuji was so clearly over-amped and ready to charge blindly that this one was really more on him than it was a dirty move by Takakeisho. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Kaninoyama