Promotion/Demotion and Yusho Talk, Natsu 2022

[WAKATAKE 2,759]

6 hours ago, Inside Sport Japan said:

New juryo interviews scheduled for this morning:

• Oshoma
• Chiyosakae
• Nishikawa

(All are provisional. Confirmation will come in one hour or so)

Nice to see they didn't do a last minute change on you

[code_number3 711]

Any news on Shohozan? Or will we see him in black mawashi next basho?

[Koorifuu 1,121]

8 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeah, it's definitely open and shut now, especially now that Oshiogawa has disambiguated itself by using Kaze as a prefix trademark (instead of the same Gō/Take kanji even though it would probably have been pronounced differently).

That leaves Nakamura to leave kaze as the suffix instead i.e. Tomokaze. 

We might have lots of windy shikona incoming, one way or the other.

[SDM 9]

In regard to some of the thoughts on promotions etc

No way Azumaryu survives with 5-10 at M15
Chiyomaru didn't and he was at M13
and Chiyonokuni 5-6-4 just to the west of him also didn't.

So there must be 4 to drop.

Surely Chiyomaru, Hidenoumi, Tsurugisho have done enough to go up.
The question then is the 4th spot.
Did Ryuden do enough?

Last time Midorifuji came from J6E with 12-3.
But then there also weren't any viable alternatives.
Unfortunately for Nishikifuji he is one less at 11-4 and J6W.
Is that enough especially given the alternative exists?
Given that Hōshōryū leapt from M6 to K with an 11-4, Takanoshō will feel hard done by if doesn't get it from M4 with 11-4.

 

[Yamanashi 4,088]

43 minutes ago, SDM said:

Given that Hōshōryū leapt from M6 to K with an 11-4, Takanoshō will feel hard done by if doesn't get it from M4 with 11-4.

I might, too, given that he was Sekiwake three basho ago, but dropped from Komosubi with a 4-11 (mirror) record.  It's not like he's a "hick from the sticks" coming up to see what the joi is like.

[Reonito 1,790]

2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I might, too, given that he was Sekiwake three basho ago, but dropped from Komosubi with a 4-11 (mirror) record.  It's not like he's a "hick from the sticks" coming up to see what the joi is like.

The vagaries of banzuke luck in each particular instance mean that rikishi are often "hard done by" in comparison to other similar cases; we can look at Onosho going from M5 to M3 after a 10-5 two basho ago. And Kiribayama has a slightly better promotion claim than Takanosho. Oh, and the last time someone got an 11-4 at M4? Hokutofuji from the East side, and he got stuck at M1.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Reonito

[Suwihuto 145]

6 hours ago, SDM said:

Unfortunately for Nishikifuji he is one less at 11-4 and J6W.

 

I don't know what the general procedure is in Juryo when there are multiple by-the-numbers promotions available, I presume it would simply go to Ryuden based on his higher rank; the yusho/dai-yushos maybe not relevant enough here? Also, giving it to Ryuden would avoid further complications based on the two 11-4s at J6.

[Yamanashi 4,088]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

The vagaries of banzuke luck in each particular instance mean that rikishi are often "hard done by" in comparison to other similar cases; we can look at Onosho going from M5 to M3 after a 10-5 two basho ago. And Kiribayama has a slightly better promotion claim than Takanosho. Oh, and the last time someone got an 11-4 at M4? Hokutofuji from the East side, and he got stuck at M1.

I agree, but still point out the above.  Far be it from me to get worked up about what the Ozumo ephors decide.

[Seiyashi 4,109]

To back Reonito up, it's not as if 10-5 from M2 and 11-4 from M4 getting stuck at M1 is unprecedented or uncommon, either. Yes, there are overall more cases of them going to sanyaku, but those were because slots opened; so getting Kiribayama and Takanosho at M1 wouldn't be too far fetched if mildly unlucky for the pair. If anything it fortifies the conclusion that Ichinojo will have to be dropped a rank or two to make the banzuke work. 

[Asashosakari 20,288]

Juryo -> Makuuchi promotion poll!

[SDM 9]

Thing is, its not just 11-4  but also a victory over the eventual winner too.

[Reonito 1,790]

6 hours ago, SDM said:

Thing is, its not just 11-4  but also a victory over the eventual winner too.

That's what the shukun-sho is for, not banzuke ranking.

[SDM 9]

Many things can be taken into account in determining promotion/demotion.

Not just very basic statistics.

[Asashosakari 20,288]

That's nice, but "can be" is not "are".

[SDM 9]

So what precisely is your point?

Are you asserting that it is just basic stats?

[Asashosakari 20,288]

1 minute ago, SDM said:

So what precisely is your point?

Are you asserting that it is just basic stats?

You were the one asserting something with your "Thing is..." statement. Meanwhile: They haven't even been engaging in generosity with the likes of Daieisho who was the yusho winner at the time himself. On what basis have you concluded that merely putting dirt on the yusho winner is going to be at all relevant?

[SDM 9]

1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

You were the one asserting something with your "Thing is..." statement. Meanwhile: They haven't even been engaging in generosity with the likes of Daieisho who was the yusho winner at the time himself. On what basis have you concluded that merely putting dirt on the yusho winner is going to be at all relevant?

Yes I was suggesting that other things than basic stats can/are taken into account.

What precisely is wrong with that?

Your other comments make no sense atall!

What has Daiesho to do with what I said?

So you are then asserting that defeating the eventual yusho winner is irrelevant.

 

[Asashosakari 20,288]

14 minutes ago, SDM said:

Yes I was suggesting that other things than basic stats can/are taken into account.

What precisely is wrong with that?

Your other comments make no sense atall!

What has Daiesho to do with what I said?

So you are then asserting that defeating the eventual yusho winner is irrelevant.

I'm saying that you don't appear to have any basis for insinuating that it is relevant besides a subjective feeling of "it oughta be like that". Meanwhile there's plenty of evidence in other recent decisions - I cited Daieisho not getting to be sekiwake after his yusho as one of the more infamous ones - that achieving particular feats of strength beyond the pure win-loss record isn't being considered positively, quite the opposite if anything.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Asashosakari

[SDM 9]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm saying that you don't appear to have any basis for insinuating that it is relevant besides a subjective feeling of "it oughta be like that". Meanwhile there's plenty of evidence in other recent decisions - I cited Daieisho not getting to be sekiwake after his yusho as one of the more infamous ones - that achieving particular feats of strength beyond the pure win-loss record isn't being considered positively, quite the opposite if anything.

I'm not insinuating anything, thats a complete mischaracterisation.

On what basis do you presume to know about some "subjective feeling" I'm having.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to personalise things instead of having a civilised debate.

The case of Daieisho doesn't actually support your contention that I'm wrong in my asssertion.

I agree that he can feel hard done by in fact. Also, keep in mind that there we are talking about a move from M to S, whereas the case that started all this ais about movinf to K.

I found you last comment odd. "quite the opposite if anything."  This appears to suggest that facing/defeating harder opponents counts against you, which seems irrational. If thats not what you mean then it isn't in fact the opposite.

Funny that you decided yourself that I had no basis without even asking if I did have, or perhaps you could say "on what basis..."

I know some things have changed in the many years since I left but not to that degree. I recall a significant amount of discussion with Japanese followers of Sumo as well as people involved in Sumo that suggests to me that the quality of opposition, result against same and other matters are of consideration when addressing the issue of promotion/demotion.

It was argued that this was in some part a potential explanation for the moves that sometimes appeared not "fair" when based purely on base stats.

You can take it or leave it. You can disagree. Thats all up to you of course. However, I'm going to just ignore it when you make it personal like this.