Yamanashi

Kabu-worthy Sekitori

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Here's a "ripped from the (Yusho/Promotion thread) headlines!":

If Kitaharima can get to 7-0 and then KK at ~Ms1 or Ms2, he can perhaps hold on for the 4 extra basho needed to make thirty as a sekitori.

Failing that, I think he could make some money as a Homasho impersonator at corporate gigs.

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Posted (edited)

Asanoyama's best chance is probably to have a very, very long career from here on out so that as many of today's decision-makers as possible are no longer there...

The real cursed kabu is Asahiyama, by the way. Five successive holders who died while active as oyakata (at the young ages of 55, 43, 44, 54 and 55), and the one who finally made it to 65 brought down the stature of the associated stable (or rather, failed to rebuild it in his two decades at the helm) to the point that it had no further successor and had to be closed down, as the last continually extant stable from Osaka's sumo organization.

Edited by Asashosakari
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18 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I mean, sure, if you place particular emphasis on his lying then you have a point, but then my counter question to you is, if the NSK feels that strongly about it, why didn't they just kick him out of sumo in the first place? He submitted his papers, so the NSK would have had a prime excuse to accept them and terminate his future in sumo for good, if they felt that making them look bad was that unforgivable.

Because those are two separate things? Wanting to keep Asanoyama as rikishi is one thing, wanting him to become one of oyakata is another.

They couldn't really kick him out (even if he did submit his papers) for lying to them without appearing to be petty and vindictive... and they couldn't kick him out for breaking the rules when they didn't kick out Abi and Ryuden (well, they could, but then they'd risk him going on various talk shows complaining about double standards and unfairness).

So they didn't accept his papers, gave him a six basho suspension and that was it... now it's up to Asanoyama to fight his way back or submit his papers once again (and this time, they will probably be accepted).

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While I can see the distinction between keeping someone as a rikishi and accepting him as an oyakata, we'll have to agree to disagree that you're splitting hairs over the components of his offence.

To recap, at the time when the scandal broke, almost all of us thought it was going to be curtains for him. The previous precedent of someone lying after getting into trouble was Ōsunaarashi, who got expelled without more. Granted, it might be argued that there is a distinction between a nihonjin and a gaijin, but I have to counterargue that it was perfectly acceptable for the NSK to kick Asanoyama out without looking petty or vindictive. There was prior precedent, public opinion (the kind that mattered) was more or less entirely in agreement that he'd been a very naughty boy (after appearing to be the Messiah, but pardon me my little joke), and even Asanoyama's supporters were pleading for mercy rather than trying to defend him. If the NSK appeared to be anything if they had expelled him, it would be harsh but just, not petty and vindictive.

You also cannot, for consistency, harp on about Asanoyama lying and then class him together with Abi and Ryūden, because those two didn't lie. There isn't a double standard there because they weren't of the same standard. Also, Asanoyama was an ōzeki and expected to set a higher standard for other rikishi to follow, so there's an even greater divergence in the standards of behaviour expected out of him vs Abi and Ryūden - he has missed his standards by a greater margin, even if he had only broken corona protocol and not lied. The prior precedent for this would be Harumafuji: rikishi have survived violence scandals before, but Harumafuji's rank was what made it impossible for him to continue. Harumafuji and Ōsunaarashi would have been excellent examples for the NSK to point to to say that a higher ranker who lied would find it extremely difficult to continue as a rikishi if at all.

If anything, I'd say they were quite mercifully lenient to hand him a technically unprecedented suspension. IIRC some of the match fixers were handed a 2 year suspension but never served them, choosing to retire instead, so this is the first time we are seeing such a long suspension served out. Is that all there is to his rehabilitation? We don't know, since he hasn't completed it. Rehabilitation isn't entirely dependent on regaining rank - Abi's rehabilitation was more in the nature of his public image rather than achieving sekiwake - but before Asanoyama has even made it back to sekitori there is an element of putting the cart before the horse.

To be fair to you, yes, we don't know whether the powers that be will accept him as an oyakata, and you might well be right that he has irreversibly tainted his chances of being accepted as one, but don't forget that Hakuhō's experience has now shown that they are willing to mess with the conditions of being oyakata (although what Asanoyama's will be, hypothetically, is unknown - don't lie? That's daft). In any case, it's premature to talk about it now because it's almost fairly certain that he won't be an oyakata if he retires now, despite being eligible, but whether he can be one after he completes his rehabilitation depends on public opinion and the noises we hear coming out of the NSK regarding it.

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Wasn't Asashoryu suspended for one basho because he lied about missing a jungyo because of injury but went to Mongolia instead? 

I've also heard stories for example, Kitanofuji lied about an injury but seen surfing in Hawaii, and Taiho trying to import firearms from the US into Japan. To my recollection their disciplinary stories were also not as harsh as Asanoyama

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Wasn't Asashoryu suspended for one basho because he lied about missing a jungyo because of injury but went to Mongolia instead? 

I've also heard stories for example, Kitanofuji lied about an injury but seen surfing in Hawaii, and Taiho trying to import firearms from the US into Japan. To my recollection their disciplinary stories were also not as harsh as Asanoyama

Two, I believe. Asashōryū's was a bit complicated because he maintained it had been a request from either Japan's or Mongolia's foreign ministry. The latter two as far as I know didn't do it during an epidemic of lax gun control or rikishi begging out to go surfing, and arguably weren't lying as much as doing something covertly and being found out. Asanoyama was found out, proceeded to deny it to his superiors' face, then tried to erase evidence and only got caught because the NSK's lawyer called his bluff. The other two AFAIK just did something illegal and came clean when they had to - even Kitanofuji's English Wikipedia article says he apologised and moved on. He might also have had extenuating circumstances, since it's not clear whether his insomnia and other ailments stemmed from his shock at Tamanoumi's death.

Edited by Seiyashi

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36 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Asashōryū's was a bit complicated because he maintained it had been a request from either Japan's or Mongolia's foreign ministry. 

The problem was not that he was in Mongolia, but that he played soccer there, at request

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On 18/05/2022 at 09:30, Asashosakari said:

While I'm at it @Tamanaogijima - for Kirishima becoming the Michinoku shisho in 1997, I believe the transaction code ought to be HT rather than KC? The parallel I have in mind is Kitazakura becoming Shikihide.

Yes, it should. Done.

(I'm amazed every time that after 10+ years we still haven't found all bugs in the kabu list yet...)

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On 17/05/2022 at 21:57, Seiyashi said:

Dewanoumi

Kabu available (ordered by proximity to retirement within each category)

  • Full oyakata
    • Irumagawa (ex-Tochitsukasa) (64)
    • Kasugano (ex-Tochinowaka) (60)
    • Sakaigawa (ex-Ryōgoku) (60)
  • Borrowers
    • Kitajin (ex-Shōtenrō) (40)
    • Otowayama (ex-Tenkaihō) (38)
    • Dekiyama (ex-Sadanofuji) (38)
    • Furiwake (ex-Hōchiyama) (40)

Sekitori waiting (by age)

  • Akiseyama (37)
  • Aoiyama (36)
  • Tokushōryū (36)
  • Myōgiryū (36)
  • Fujiazuma (35)
  • Sadanoumi (35)
  • Jōkōryū (34)
  • Hidenoumi (33)
  • Mitakeumi (30)
  • Meisei (27)

Was looking at this post Jokoryu retirement. Seems Aoiyama and Myogiryu makes sense to get a Kabu but even then it's hard to figure out where they would get it, as Sadanoumi is probably getting the Sakaigawa spot (with the Ryogoku connection mentioned.) Probs a combination of the Tochiozan theory, the loanee spot opens up, and some luck with the full time spots. Tokushoryu is the odd man out here, and unless he can take a loanee spot (which depends on his retirement I think) he might have to take the Jokoryu out (would be weird to watch a Yusho winner leave though.) 

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1 minute ago, Chartorenji said:

Was looking at this post Jokoryu retirement. Seems Aoiyama and Myogiryu makes sense to get a Kabu but even then it's hard to figure out where they would get it, as Sadanoumi is probably getting the Sakaigawa spot (with the Ryogoku connection mentioned.) Probs a combination of the Tochiozan theory, the loanee spot opens up, and some luck with the full time spots. Tokushoryu is the odd man out here, and unless he can take a loanee spot (which depends on his retirement I think) he might have to take the Jokoryu out (would be weird to watch a Yusho winner leave though.) 

After Shōhōzan's departure I'd be less surprised to see Tokushōryū leave, though. He is the only yūshō winner who never made sanyaku or something like that, and I don't think his priority for a stock went up that much just because of that shock yūshō. Might have been a different matter if he could have hung around in the joi for at least a few basho and made junior sanyaku, but he doesn't seem to be a great loss, to put it bluntly.

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

After Shōhōzan's departure I'd be less surprised to see Tokushōryū leave, though. He is the only yūshō winner who never made sanyaku or something like that, and I don't think his priority for a stock went up that much just because of that shock yūshō. Might have been a different matter if he could have hung around in the joi for at least a few basho and made junior sanyaku, but he doesn't seem to be a great loss, to put it bluntly.

Tokushoryu is, of course, a big fan favorite, but I don't think that and ten dimes will get you a dollar in the NSK.  Sadanoumi is a legacy who has had a twilight resurgence and will probably get a kabu.

Akiseyama comes out of Kise, like Jokoryu; does anyone want him teaching young rikishi his "techniques"?  Aoiyama has been in Makuuchi forever, and was less one-dimensional in his youth, so he would be a good choice.  There are already six "assistant coaches" in Kasugano; could he work with fellow-Bulgarian Kotoosho over at Narutobeya?

Myogiryu is another solid sekitori, and is deserving; once again, a ton of oyakata at Sakaigawa as well.

Other than Mitakeumi, nothing special in that list (Meisei is too young to think about just yet).

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