Scheduling question

[Sumo Spiffy 207]

I tried looking for this, but I have no idea what a good set of search terms is, so...

At the start of a basho, there's a set method of scheduling matches. At the end, matchups are based around how the wrestlers are doing. But what I've been trying to figure out is, is there a set point during the competition where that switch is supposed to happen?

The thing that's made it hard to discern (for me, at least) is that midway through there will be matches between guys with terrible records, but also a lot of fights between wrestlers of both similar rank and record. And, of course, they don't want to match up the rikishi with the best records because they may need to save those bouts for the end. So, I'm not sure if for the most part they're continuing to follow the general logic of which ranks they're supposed to face, or if the schedulers are trying to put most of them with their closest competitors in both rank and record, while the guys who are struggling at least try to pick up some wins against each other.

[Asojima 2,835]

3 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I tried looking for this, but I have no idea what a good set of search terms is, so...

At the start of a basho, there's a set method of scheduling matches. At the end, matchups are based around how the wrestlers are doing. But what I've been trying to figure out is, is there a set point during the competition where that switch is supposed to happen?

The thing that's made it hard to discern (for me, at least) is that midway through there will be matches between guys with terrible records, but also a lot of fights between wrestlers of both similar rank and record. And, of course, they don't want to match up the rikishi with the best records because they may need to save those bouts for the end. So, I'm not sure if for the most part they're continuing to follow the general logic of which ranks they're supposed to face, or if the schedulers are trying to put most of them with their closest competitors in both rank and record, while the guys who are struggling at least try to pick up some wins against each other.

As a genral rule for Juryo and Makuuchi, the first 7 days are scheduled based mostly on rank.  From day 8 on, the basho results play a larger part with rikishi with similar records being paired.  
For makushita and below, after day 2, almost all matches are based on identical or very nearly identical records.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Asojima

[Asashosakari 16,827]

Even the method for making the early matches isn't completely set in stone. For instance, Days 1-3 in Haru basho for the first few maegashira who weren't required for matches with sanyaku opponents:

Day 1
5e-5w (17-18)
6e-6w (19-20)
7e-7w (21-22)
8e-8w (23-24)

Day 2
5e-6w (17-20)
5w-6e (18-19)
7e-8w (21-24)
7w-8e (22-23)

Day 3
5e-6e (17-19)
5w-6w (18-20)
7e-8e (21-23)
7w-8w (22-24)

The first two days this basho:

Day 1
5w-6e (17-18)
6w-7e (19-20)
7w-8e (21-22)
8w-9e (23-24)

Day 2
5w-6w (17-19)
6e-7e (18-20)
7w-8w (21-23)
8e-9e (22-24)

That's last basho's Day 3 pattern on Day 2 this time (and probably vice versa).

Edited May 7, 2022 by Asashosakari
changed the numbering from 1-8 to 17-24 to be in line with the follow-up comment

[Jakusotsu 4,878]

...which is caused by Ichinojo's absence, but you know this of course.

[Asashosakari 16,827]

19 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

...which is caused by Ichinojo's absence, but you know this of course.

I don't think that's relevant for this; all that has done is shift the 8 maegashira in question down by one banzuke spot, which is why I added the ordinal numbering for illustration of how it's otherwise the same. The matches involving the top 16 rikishi above them are identical in positional terms for Days 1 and 2 of both tournaments, so I see no compelling reason to deviate for numbers 17 to 24 (actually, all the way to 36), yet they flipped it around anyway.

[Jakusotsu 4,878]

Sorry, didn't read past day 1, which is identical by ordinal numbers.

[Sakura 1,235]

Speaking from a Guess Hokutofuji's Aite perspective, they haven't done anything different. The exact `pattern' is determined by the exact rank of the highest ranked rikishi in the last Maegashira vs Maegashira bout of the day.

[Reonito 637]

6 hours ago, Asojima said:

As a genral rule for Juryo and Makuuchi, the first 7 days are scheduled based mostly on rank.  From day 8 on, the basho results play a larger part with rikishi with similar records being paired.  

As far as I can tell in Makuuchi, it's not a sharp shift: results might play a bit more of a role on day 8, increasing from there until they're the predominant (sole?) factor on day 15.

[Sakura 1,235]

Of course, the torikumi making department has just changed configuration, so it'll be interesting to see what they do. Will they keep it the same or not?

[Yamanashi 2,918]

 ... and you won't get an M4e - M5w, an M7e - M8w, or an M9e - M7w, for example, because they belong to the same heya.

[Seiyashi 3,361]

Second-hand info that quotes one of the learned respondees in this thread, but the best prose writedown for the first two days is probably here:

https://tachiai.org/2022/03/05/looking-ahead-to-the-march-torikumi/

Edited May 8, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Reonito 637]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Second-hand info that quotes one of the learned respondees in this thread, but the best prose writedown for the first two days is probably here:

https://tachiai.org/2022/03/05/looking-ahead-to-the-march-torikumi/

Except, as @Sakura pointed out, it's incorrect about which ozeki should face a komusubi on day 2.

[Gurowake 3,452]

Generally, there's a slow transition from matches based entirely on rank to matches (nearly) entirely based on record starting after day 8, thus for the matches scheduled for Day 10.  If there are any matches scheduled before Day 10 based on record at all, they're not very common and might only seem to be based on record when in reality the records had nothing to do with it.  The reason it happens at this point is that it's not possible to have MKs or KKs, and that informs two distinct scheduling patterns.  First is that a low-ranked rikishi will generally not be brought up to a higher ranked opponent than normal until they have a KK.  Second is that sanyaku rikishi who do not have MKs will generally not be matched up against maegashira who have MKs.  Thus, as the tournament progresses, there are more matches that are generated due to a top-scoring rikishi, and more matches that are avoided due to low-scoring rikishi, which tends to mean more matches based on record as the second week progresses.  The last couple days, and Day 15 in particular, the matches will be more affirmatively based on record with rank being only a sort of tiebreaker when deciding.

On a different note, because it's somewhat important and not always obvious, the matches between the sanyaku rikishi are planned out so there is roughly the same number each day, though weighted towards the end of the tournament, with the days there need to be less such matches earlier on.  They also plan on the last three matches of the tournament to be 5v6, 3v4, and 1v2 in ordinal number on the banzuke because of the soroibumi ceremony that takes place just before the last three matches. Quite often due to withdrawals they aren't actually able to do this, but that's what's planned from the start, and why the number of intrasanyaku matches on Day 3 this tournament will most likely be one instead of the two you'd otherwise expect when there are 28 possible matches to spread over 15 days, with less on the opening days.  These matches are also planned so that in general the matches between the higher ranked rikishi are done later than those that are lower-ranked.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Gurowake

[Yamanashi 2,918]

3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

First is that a low-ranked rikishi will generally not be brought up to a higher ranked opponent than normal until they have a KK.

I assume that is an Early Warning signal to give a lower-ranker more pushback as he drifts toward Yusho contention, is that right?

 

3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

the matches between the sanyaku rikishi are planned out so there is roughly the same number each day

If you're going to sell tickets on, say, day 6, it would be good if the crowd gets to see at least one or two bouts between high-rankers.

[Jakusotsu 4,878]

Any idea why Kotoshoho gets Nishikigi on day 3 and not Okinoumi??

Edit for clarification:

M9e Kotoshoho - M10w Nishikigi
M10e Okinoumi - M11w Chiyoshoma

...could have been the other way round just as well. Is there a preference for East vs. West matchups I wasn't aware of?

Edited May 9, 2022 by Jakusotsu

[Seiyashi 3,361]

4 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Any idea why Kotoshoho gets Nishikigi on day 3 and not Okinoumi??

Edit for clarification:

M9e Kotoshoho - M10w Nishikigi
M10e Okinoumi - M11w Chiyoshoma

...could have been the other way round just as well. Is there a preference for East vs. West matchups I wasn't aware of?

Was it the fallout from Ichinojo's withdrawal, or have you already taken that into account? 

[Sakura 1,235]

6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Any idea why Kotoshoho gets Nishikigi on day 3 and not Okinoumi??

Edit for clarification:

M9e Kotoshoho - M10w Nishikigi
M10e Okinoumi - M11w Chiyoshoma

...could have been the other way round just as well. Is there a preference for East vs. West matchups I wasn't aware of?

The whole torikumi for the Mid- Maegashira seems off. They didn't do Ura-Wakamotoharu and that has impacted everything in the section. My only guess is that they did the matchups for the top 16 rikishi, then started working from the bottom. When they got to Kotoeko-Kotoshoho they had to rework and this was their solution. Doing the usual `first available rikishi' from the top would have produced a sensible torikumi, so I have no idea why they went with something else. 

Maybe the new torikumi committee really does have different ideas.

[Gurowake 3,452]

8 hours ago, Sakura said:

The whole torikumi for the Mid- Maegashira seems off. They didn't do Ura-Wakamotoharu and that has impacted everything in the section. My only guess is that they did the matchups for the top 16 rikishi, then started working from the bottom. When they got to Kotoeko-Kotoshoho they had to rework and this was their solution. Doing the usual `first available rikishi' from the top would have produced a sensible torikumi, so I have no idea why they went with something else. 

Maybe the new torikumi committee really does have different ideas.

This doesn't really explain the issue that Jakusotsu brought up.  There's no reason to make that change even if they are making the other change.  It only affects the two matches involving the M10s and nothing else.  The first issue of skipping Wakakmotoharu vs. Ura can be "solved" easily by saying that they backtracked after discovering Kotoeko-Kotoshoho would be in the pattern if they continued.  But the normal way around that forbidden matchup would have had the exact same torikumi for the lower part of the banzuke, so there's no readily apparent reason for the M10 switch being done other than someone goofed, and since it's not that big of a deal, it's not worth changing after initially being done.

It doesn't make much sense to suggest they went from the bottom up, because the very bottom of the banzuke is paired just like it normally would be, with an adjustment needing to be made to the last (well, first in reality, last on the banzuke) couple matches.  If they were going from the bottom up, why wouldn't Kagayaki face Ichiyamamoto?

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Gurowake

[Sakura 1,235]

38 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

This doesn't really explain the issue that Jakusotsu brought up.  There's no reason to make that change even if they are making the other change.  It only affects the two matches involving the M10s and nothing else.  The first issue of skipping Wakakmotoharu vs. Ura can be "solved" easily by saying that they backtracked after discovering Kotoeko-Kotoshoho would be in the pattern if they continued.  But the normal way around that forbidden matchup would have had the exact same torikumi for the lower part of the banzuke, so there's no readily apparent reason for the M10 switch being done other than someone goofed, and since it's not that big of a deal, it's not worth changing after initially being done.

It doesn't make much sense to suggest they went from the bottom up, because the very bottom of the banzuke is paired just like it normally would be, with an adjustment needing to be made to the last (well, first in reality, last on the banzuke) couple matches.  If they were going from the bottom up, why wouldn't Kagayaki face Ichiyamamoto?

 

I agree. Further analysis suggests that they were not going from the bottom up. 

[Sumo Spiffy 207]

Ok, the question came up in the games forum, but it should probably be asked here instead to keep that thread uncluttered: What is the even-day rule? I can't find anything about it on Google, at least not by that name, and any way I search for it on this forum just comes back to the current Hokutofuji game or other unrelated rules.

[Asojima 2,835]

59 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Ok, the question came up in the games forum, but it should probably be asked here instead to keep that thread uncluttered: What is the even-day rule? I can't find anything about it on Google, at least not by that name, and any way I search for it on this forum just comes back to the current Hokutofuji game or other unrelated rules.

On odd numbered basho days, the East side is considered the "senior" side for scheduling and announcement purposes,  On the even numbered basho days, the West is senior. So, scheduling for day 2 will consider an M5w rikishi as senior to an M5e rikishi.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Asojima

[Sumo Spiffy 207]

Ok, that makes sense, but now you've introduced me to something new: the idea of seniority as a method of figuring out the schedule. How does that impact things? I've always noticed that certain ranks face certain other ranks (e.g. the yokozuna lineup) until you start seeing the matchups based on record, but it's always looked like M1e > M1w > M2e > M2w and so on. If that flips (with regards to wrestlers on the same rank) on even numbered days, what does that do to how they look at, or are supposed to look at, scheduling the bouts?

[Sakura 1,235]

25 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

what does that do to how they look at, or are supposed to look at, scheduling the bouts?

As a GHA player, I wouldn't want to give too much away. It's nice to be able to work these things out yourself.

[Sumo Spiffy 207]

Fair enough. I will ask this, though: My line of thinking has been that with Ichinojo out, the scheduling would effectively shift to treat everyone as one rank higher for purposes of matchmaking (e.g. M3E is now scheduled like M2W normally would be). Obviously that's true to an extent, ie. who the yokozuna fights, but I take it the system doesn't work in quite so straightforward a manner.

[Sakura 1,235]

55 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Fair enough. I will ask this, though: My line of thinking has been that with Ichinojo out, the scheduling would effectively shift to treat everyone as one rank higher for purposes of matchmaking (e.g. M3E is now scheduled like M2W normally would be). Obviously that's true to an extent, ie. who the yokozuna fights, but I take it the system doesn't work in quite so straightforward a manner.

Sadly it's not quite that straightforward, but you are right that it does impact for example the Yokozuna schedule.