Natsu 2022 Discussion Thread - here be spoilers

[Jakusotsu 5,279]

10 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

Are the fights this basho as wildly unpredictable as they seem to be?

To answer your question with numbers, this is a good starting point.

The first day of this basho is already featured in the Top 25 Lowest Scoring Days.

(the "Scoring Summary" is also worth investigating)

[Sumo Spiffy 399]

5 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

To answer your question with numbers, this is a good starting point.

The first day of this basho is already featured in the Top 25 Lowest Scoring Days.

(the "Scoring Summary" is also worth investigating)

Oooh! I like Sumo Game, but there were so many stats to check that I never got into looking through many of them. Thanks for pointing this out.

(Also makes my, uh... not good scoring average feel a little less bad.)

[Akinomaki 37,422]

57 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Another step for sumo getting back to normal: this basho spectators are noisy again and don't just all diligently clap their hands as ordered.

And a step back again. Eating is allowed now in your seats in the hall, but the NSK wants people to eat in silence, like monks.

The good old German saying, "don't speak while eating", here it should rather say "don't speak with your masks off"

[Akinomaki 37,422]

Looks like Inosuke did the kaobure gonjo, the presentation of next day's makuuchi torikumi only on day 2 so far. Is it him or are the torikumi nearly always too late now to have them presented after the dohyo-iri?

[Kurowashi 40]

Is it march or why is Aoiyama doing so well ? 

[Yamanashi 3,346]

23 minutes ago, Kurowashi said:

Is it march or why is Aoiyama doing so well ? 

That's easy.  He missed the first half of the May 2021 basho, so this is the sixth basho after his 11-4 J in March 2021.

[Kaminariyuki 495]

13 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Exciting utchari attempt by Ura on Wakamotoharu. Came to nothing though! Torinaoshi.

I liked it, too, although he never quite had it.

[Kaminariyuki 495]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Another step for sumo getting back to normal: this basho spectators are noisy again and don't just all diligently clap their hands as ordered.

Sanspo still won't post the numbers of those attending though. And I haven't heard any reports of the man-in onrei banners being down again since last Kyushu, when a limited full house was declared. Maybe on day 15.

Wow, I can't believe that I hadn't noticed that. I am looking forward to someday parking my keester on a zabuton in the Kokugikan and I don't know if I can restrain myself to only clapping. 

[Benihana 1,818]

Nice Harumafuji-NON-henka by Hoshoryu. Although some crybabies beg to differ.

 

[sumojoann 1,226]

1 minute ago, Benihana said:

Nice Harumafuji-NON-henka by Hoshoryu. Although some crybabies beg to differ.

 

I guess I'm one of the crybabies.  I think henkas are a cheap, shoddy way to win, and show a pathetic level of desperation.

[Yamanashi 3,346]

3 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Nice Harumafuji-NON-henka by Hoshoryu. Although some crybabies beg to differ.

 

I agree.  Like a great toreador, he glides past the opponent and "sticks the dart" (grabs the back of the mawashi); he doesn't jump out of the way like a guy avoiding a bus.

[Benihana 1,818]

3 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

I guess I'm one of the crybabies.  I think henkas are a cheap, shoddy way to win, and show a pathetic level of desperation.

It's called Harumafuji-non-henka, because it's no henka. Please rewatch the video. 

This is a henka:

 

[Yamanashi 3,346]

3 minutes ago, Benihana said:

It's called Harumafuji-non-henka, because it's no henka. Please rewatch the video. 

This is a henka:

 

Large man avoids minibus.

[sumojoann 1,226]

27 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Large man avoids minibus.

I agree that there is a difference between a full-on henka and what Harumafuji used to do, which I think was actually called a "HENKA-non-henka".  It was still a henka, IMO, because the hapless recipient had little or no opportunity to engage.  He becomes powerless because there is no real tachiai, and all that forward momentum is wasted as he is basically just escorted or pushed off the dohyo.

[Yamanashi 3,346]

38 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

I agree that there is a difference between a full-on henka and what Harumafuji used to do, which I think was actually called a "HENKA-non-henka".  It was still a henka, IMO, because the hapless recipient had little or no opportunity to engage.  He becomes powerless because there is no real tachiai, and all that forward momentum is wasted as he is basically just escorted or pushed off the dohyo.

Well, unlike historians who ponder the reasons for the Bronze Age Collapse or the meaning of "Croatoan", we can probably ask the person or persons who first coined the phrase "HNH" and find out what they had in mind.

[Eikokurai 3,419]

4 hours ago, Benihana said:

Nice Harumafuji-NON-henka by Hoshoryu. Although some crybabies beg to differ.

 

A HNH requires an initial shoulder hit before moving rapidly to the side. Harumafuji mastered pulling out of the tachiai while his opponent was still coming forward, making it appear henka-like but was still a legit tachiai. Quick hit and then use the speed to move left or right before the aite has recovered balance. Hoshoryu went straight to the side. Normal henka. Not that it matters, because HNH isn't a real thing anyway. It's just a henka with a bit of foreward movement as the rikishi goes sideways, which is arguably easier to pull off than disguising the intent to do a pure sidestep.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Eikokurai

[Rocks 1,790]

I hate henkas, especially by sanyaku and most especially in key matches.

BUT, it's only a henka IMO when you do not make contact at the tach-ai. Although Hoshuryu clearly begins to shift  some he takes the hit and moves to grab the rear of the mawashi leading the guy out. The hit actually  aides the shift as he is slightly off center at the hit. This is classic Harumafuji and is no henka IMO. This is the kind of a move which works against guys that would never fall to a henka. It only works if you are quick, not real heavy and strong. Hoshoryu takes the hit, it's just ineffective as he's at an angle instead of head on. This is why the guy who losses to this always sort of stops and has to be aided out with the pull of the back of the mawashi. They hit the guy  and their momentum is  checked. A pure henka the guy just keeps going out or is slapped down.

 

Does Hoshuryu do this as well as Harumafuji? No, but he's younger. He will. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Rocks

[Katooshu 2,762]

It seems pretty silly to me that someone would be upset with a standard henka but defend the so-called HNH to be honest. Both involve a clear shift at the tachiai and far less contact than a straight on tachiai. A rikishi falling victim to these moves is put at the biggest disadvantage because their foe is not there for a full hit and hence they either fall face first, or expose their back or side. Hosh got Waka's back because Waka basically fell straight forward, as no one was there. 

People seem to mostly use HNH to defend rikishi they like pulling off henka, which the move is. I don't mind the occasional henka to mix things up though - it's a good way for a rikishi to keep opponents guessing.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Katooshu

[Rocks 1,790]

2 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

It seems pretty silly to me that someone would be upset with a standard henka but not the so-called HNH to be honest. Both involve a clear shift at the tachiai and far less contact than a straight on tachiai. 

I don't see why. The former involves avoiding the tach-ai, the heart of any match IMO, and the other involves using it to your advantage. A standard henka is to your advantage but it's  gained at avoiding the match altogether.  THE HNH  has a clear flaw. If the guy you are facing is going for a grip instead of a hard push at tach-ai you are in big trouble. A true henka avoids a grip and a push by avoiding contact altogether. 

[Katooshu 2,762]

Both involve a big side step that leaves the opponent hitting air or only making partial contact. Hosh's first step goes way to the right of the line, not straight forward. His next foot follows by again going waaay to the right. Waka basically ends up doing a tachiai at the air (see the image), and hence stumbles forward, allowing Hosh to easily take his back. 

It's just a type of henka dressed up as something more appealing. 

Like I said, I don't mind the occasional henka and am not hating on Hosh pulling that move - I actually think it's smart to pull at least one henka a basho. But getting upset at a 'normal' henka while defending an HNH, or whatever you want to call Hoshoryu's move, is silly.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Katooshu

[Eikokurai 3,419]

I reiterate: they are both henkas. HNH is not a real thing - it's just something made up by fans. Any sideways movement to avoid the tachiai is a henka no matter what the rikishi does next.

[Katooshu 2,762]

Yep, agreed. 

[Rocks 1,790]

24 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I reiterate: they are both henkas. HNH is not a real thing - it's just something made up by fans. Any sideways movement to avoid the tachiai is a henka no matter what the rikishi does next.

Tachiai mean literally to Stand and Meet. That is to be there AND come in contact with your opponent. If you come into contact initially you have not avoided the tachai.  Hoshoryu first step is right, but so would many going for an outside right grip. His initial movement, at least with his arms, is forward and it is actually he who makes first contact. Something which never happens in a true henka. What happens after that contact is just sumo. 

 

 A true henka does avoid contact, in fact it does it by design.  A henka is intended to avoid sumo altogether. If Waka wasn't going so hard for a chest push with his hands and instead was trying to grip the mawashi he could have easily got a deep inside grip and Hoshoryu would be toast. If Hoshoryu had done this same move to Endo, Endo would have won quickly. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Rocks

[Katooshu 2,762]

His first step is far to the right, then his next step is far to the right and he simultaneously swivels to the side, avoiding a full on clash (again, see my image). That's henka stuff. 

Some type of glancing contact happens all the time with 'normal' henka as well, whether all contact is avoided isn't what makes a henka; it's that one rikishi performs an evasive movement to the side from the tachiai, as Hoshoryu clearly did when both his steps went way to the right and he turned his body.

It's just a particular version of a henka, and whatever we call it, there's very little difference between the movements performed.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Katooshu

[Morty 1,442]

Agreed that a HNH is definitely still a henka