Benihana

Natsu 2022 Discussion Thread - here be spoilers

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34 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

Well, if he gets a 14-1 he also gets a yusho nine out of ten. Even in case someone else gets 15-0 (beg to differ with this banzuke), a 14-1 is the yusho equivalent. A yusho should be necessary for a 13-2 (the "Shodai deal"), in that case I would plenty agree.

Not sure the 14-1 in the case of 15-0 is a yūshō equivalent in any sense of the term, but I take the point that a 14-1 is likely to be the yūshō score. I don't know even with a 14-1, though. With 3 ōzeki they aren't starving for more, and Daieishō hasn't been the type of consistent performer you'd hope would be a rock for the upper ranks either. In the past two years he's put up some big numbers but it's gone both ways, with 5 doubledigit KKs, 2 doubledigit MKs, and a 6-9, alongside a host of 8-7s and 7-8s. If he had been made ōzeki after his K2w bashō he would have lost it by now.

In fact, looking at the whole of the joi, I don't know that there is in fact any rikishi that stable. Mitakeumi was the only one but even he has flaky bashō like this one.

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16 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Daieishō hasn't been the type of consistent performer you'd hope would be a rock for the upper ranks either.

Yup. We badly need a couple of convincing ozeki, but pushing guys who aren't up to the role isn't going to solve anything.

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The Isegahama duo wins makuuchi and juryo yusho (Teru and Nishikifuji). In Hatsu 2021, it was Oitekaze's Daieisho and Tsurugisho. They could've repeated this feat if Tsurugisho won and Terunofuji lost today.

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27 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Yup. We badly need a couple of convincing ozeki, but pushing guys who aren't up to the role isn't going to solve anything.

Of course, I was not suggesting that Daieisho will be actually able to get a 14-1 (or a 13-2 yusho). I was rather almost baffled he is technically on the run.

Also, I believe that the prerequisites for making Ozeki are a good cutoff for themselves (especially since they put the bar at 33). Both Takakeisho and Mitakeumi are good Ozeki when healthy. Even Shodai Lord Mode got it, but unfortunately it switches on only whether in serious danger of demotion.

About Shodai, he is perhaps showing the limits of the kadoban system. He is clearly not performing at Ozeki level, yet he just needs to show up for eight bouts every two bashos and keep the rank. There are things that a KK simply do not show. Does the YDC have the power to forcibly demote him for lack of fighting spirit or something like that? They should seriously consider implementing such a tool at least for cases like Shodai. The guy could even feel relieved from a demotion, he totally needs less pressure and more hunger.

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3 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

Of course, I was not suggesting that Daieisho will be actually able to get a 14-1 (or a 13-2 yusho). I was rather almost baffled he is technically on the run.

Also, I believe that the prerequisites for making Ozeki are a good cutoff for themselves (especially since they put the bar at 33). Both Takakeisho and Mitakeumi are good Ozeki when healthy. Even Shodai Lord Mode got it, but unfortunately it switches on only whether in serious danger of demotion.

About Shodai, he is perhaps showing the limits of the kadoban system. He is clearly not performing at Ozeki level, yet he just needs to show up for eight bouts every two bashos and keep the rank. There are things that a KK simply do not show. Does the YDC have the power to forcibly demote him for lack of fighting spirit or something like that? They should seriously consider implementing such a tool at least for cases like Shodai. The guy could even feel relieved from a demotion, he totally needs less pressure and more hunger.

Far too subjective. One could easily argue he showed plenty of fighting spirit turning around that disastrous start last basho to end up with a KK, for example.

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Just now, Eikokurai said:

Far too subjective. One could easily argue he showed plenty of fighting spirit turning around that disastrous start last basho to end up with a KK, for example.

Consider that Shodai has a recurring pattern, however. It's not just one bad basho. He basically never show up. I am not arguing he has his reasons (lack of confidence, imposter syndrome, depression), but we just cannot have a perfectly healthy Ozeki playing swing every odd basho. That's also destructive for the basho itself. He just gives points around in the first week just to rush and rack up eight wins in the second to the dismay of rikishi actually in need of their KK. A Maegashira playing the same game would slowly fall in Juryo. And a Yokozuna doing the same would be undoubtedly targeted by the YDC (damn, Shodai as a Yokozuna would barely show up at all, wouldn't he?).

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Posted (edited)

Looked to me as though the US President's Cup was presented to Terunofuji (on the eve of President Biden's official visit).  I feared that this trophy would die with the pandemic, but it is nice to see it presented again after a two-year hiatus.  One more sign that we are starting to restore things to the way they were pre-2020.

Edited by Amamaniac

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The NSK knew how it would end up, so they gave the two shukunsho unconditionally (Sigh...)

Congrats anyway to T for the yusho no. 7! It's not back to the free for all era... not yet.

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1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

And a Yokozuna doing the same would be undoubtedly targeted by the YDC (damn, Shodai as a Yokozuna would barely show up at all, wouldn't he?).

If someone shoved a live wire in Shodai's mawashi and he won the yusho in July and September, do you think they would make him yokozuna or find a reason to deny the promotion?

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I defy anyone to imagine consecutive yushos for Shodai and have any imagination leftover to consider the consequences. 

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7 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

If someone shoved a live wire in Shodai's mawashi and he won the yusho in July and September, do you think they would make him yokozuna or find a reason to deny the promotion?

He's japanese, so the oyakata would likely make his tsuna themselves with their own hands and extra care.

Jokes aside, I don't remember any instance in which a rikishi winning a back-to-back yusho was denied promotion since, uh, 1950. Back then, Chiyonoyama was denied Yokozuna promotion because "too young" (he was 23). He became the 41st Yokozuna one year later. Blimey, Futahaguro was infamously promoted with a JY-JY in 1986 at age 23 simply because they needed a second Yokozuna (does not sound familiar?). Back then the YDC lamented Futahaguro's young age but gave the green light nonetheless. Granted, no one wants to promote a rikishi without at least a yusho anymore, but already a Y-JY is still accepted.

Of course, we are talking about school theories here. I cannot see Shodai to wake suddenly up and win two yusho. Even in case, I can see the YDC write in their acceptance document "just make sure to keep the live wire up his damn longbottom".

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Posted (edited)

Has there ever been an Ōzeki who cleared his kadoban status with a yūshō AND won a yūshō in the next basho as well? I'm genuinely curious and apologize in advance for being to stupid to work the database properly (Bow...)

That aside, I'm quite happy for Takakeishō being able to dodge kadoban. Hopefully he wasn't injured too badly.

Shame that we didn't get a nice Makuuchi play-off. Good for Terunofuji, though.

EDIT: I remember Gōeidō clearing kadoban with his yūshō and I think back then there was talk of whether he'd be promoted if he'd get a second yūshō. He never did.

Edited by MrGrumpyGills

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

Has there ever been an Ozeki who cleared his kadoban status with a yusho AND won a yusho in the next basho as well? I'm genuinely curious and apologize in advance for being to stupid to work the database properly (Bow...)

Sorry, I misunderstood your question and had to delete my previous post. Basically, you asked whether a kadoban Ozeki managed to meet the criteria for promotion (two back-to-back yusho) in the very two basho following his kadoban. Well, while quite a few Ozeki won a yusho while clearing their kadoban, no one managed to get a back-to-back: here the results. Tochiazuma almost did it in 2006 with a 2-2-11 / 14-1 Y / 12-3 from Kyushu 2005 to Haru 2006. Unfortunately, in the last basho both Asashoryu and Hakuho had the rude idea to go 13-2 (Asashoryu won the playoff) so Tochiazuma got only the third placement.

In other worlds, we will be most likely spared a possible Yokozuna Shodai after Aki 2022.

Edited by Hankegami
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Congrats to Terunofuji. 12-3Y with no playoff required, despite the lingering health problems and painful early losses. It doesn't feel normal for 12-3 to be enough. He kept going and prevailed.

The likes of Wakatakakage, Hoshoryu, Kiribayama, Kotoshoho and Kotonowaka are almost certainly improving.

I'm not convinced that Shodai lacks the fighting spirit or has dramatically fallen off. It seems like quite of few of his opponents have become supremely adept at taking advantage of his upright initial charge (that you guys have been been pointing out for years now) without falling into his traps or becoming engaged in a belt battle. He'll have to fend off another MK again.

Whether or not it'll happen, we'll have to wait and see. He earned the rank after all. If he wins 2 straight Yusho, he probably deserves the Yokozuna promotion. But if he does lose the rank, he'll certainly be able to stick around in the top division for several years.

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Looked to me as though the US President's Cup was presented to Terunofuji (on the eve of President Biden's official visit).  I feared that this trophy would die with the pandemic, but it is nice to see it presented again after a two-year hiatus.  One more sign that we are starting to restore things to the way they were pre-2020.

We did not restore pre-2019, though.

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1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

We did not restore pre-2019, though.

Are you sure? There’s a lot of ozeki are not ozeki because they have mental problems type analysis going on.

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8 hours ago, Katooshu said:

He was ready for the ashitori this time, especially after Yamato used it in the first playoff match.

Sneaky Yamato displayed a straight-ahead matta, hoping to set Kazekeno up for the leg pick, but it didn't work.  Come on, do you think that would fool a Sumiki?

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Hmmm. It might be a bit of a stretch to consider the US President's cup that was introduced in 2019 as a sign of pre-2020 sumo. But okay. The novelty and grandeur of the bonus trophy and show of friendly international relations during the ceremony seem somewhat reasonable. There was a “President of the Republic of France Cup” at some point too.

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7 minutes ago, Fukuyamada said:

Hmmm. It might be a bit of a stretch to consider the US President's cup that was introduced in 2019 as a sign of pre-2020 sumo. But okay. The novelty and grandeur of the bonus trophy and show of friendly international relations during the ceremony seem somewhat reasonable. There was a “President of the Republic of France Cup” at some point too.

It was great that they continued the tradition, despite the slight schedule mismatch (as if the US President would change his schedule to cover day 15 ... )

 

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29 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:
8 hours ago, Katooshu said:

He was ready for the ashitori this time, especially after Yamato used it in the first playoff match.

Sneaky Yamato displayed a straight-ahead matta, hoping to set Kazekeno up for the leg pick, but it didn't work.  Come on, do you think that would fool a Sumiki?

It's his debut, he found a thing that worked for him, and by jingo he was going to try for it every chance he got. Even if he didn't get a chance he still went for it. It's like a novice chess player who wins a match with the Grob (g4) and is convinced that he has the game solved. Yamato will learn, he's fast and young and he will be worth keeping an eye on.

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Good job Terunofuji! A strong second week to put some order in an overall weird basho 

Really fun sekiwake battle today. If Wakatakakage can fix his hatakikomi problem he can still make that run work. He looks hard to beat otherwise atm... unless your name is Terunofuji 

Well, i miss sumo already 

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10 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

It's his debut, he found a thing that worked for him, and by jingo he was going to try for it every chance he got. Even if he didn't get a chance he still went for it. It's like a novice chess player who wins a match with the Grob (g4) and is convinced that he has the game solved. Yamato will learn, he's fast and young and he will be worth keeping an eye on.

I agree.  He was reading too many adoring headlines.  He will get over it.

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11 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Meanwhile, Tsushimanada joins the relatively short list (which I suspect Yubinhaad has at the ready) of makushita rikishi with multiple 8th-bout appearances.


According to my file he's the 7th Makushita rikishi to fight an eighth bout more than once, and the 15th rikishi overall.

Down in Jonokuchi, debutant Wakasei also fought an eighth bout on Day 14, making this the 31st basho with two rikishi fighting extra bouts.


It's more minutiae than asked for, but 2022 Hatsu saw Sawaisamu fight an eighth bout for the second time in his long career, nearly 14 years after the first. That was a 4-4 result, and he's the last active rikishi to have one of those.

2022 Haru had no extra bouts which ended a run of 11 consecutive basho with them, two basho short of the record.

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Congrats to Terunofuji, proving why he's the current boss in town. Glad my earlier prediction came true. Like another poster said, I think the NSK and YDC will hold Terunofuji in good regards this time around, not over the top like normal since the yusho line was low this time. But considering that he did withdraw last basho and come back to win the yusho, that in itself shows how committed he was to seeing this through to the end. Other implications to him winning, Aminishiki's (Ajigawa) danpatsu is on the 29th, so a big present for him. All six Isegahama sekitori also won on senshuraku, Nishikifuji winning the Juryo yusho too

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202205220001227.html

Too bad for the three runnerups, but it'll be an interesting run for Takanosho and Daieisho, considering the latter could be on ozeki watch now

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8 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Does the YDC have the power to forcibly demote him for lack of fighting spirit or something like that?

The YDC has no power to do anything at all; they can only recommend things to the NSK, which put in place the kadoban system. And the Ozeki are not within the purview of the YDC, except when it comes to their eventual Yokozuna chances.

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