Benihana

Natsu 2022 Discussion Thread - here be spoilers

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3 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Looking forward with interest at which bouts are skipped in coming days to help resolve an unclear yusho race... or I suppose they could let ichiyamamoto take it having only faced low maegashira

Considering how all the ozeki are doing, and considering that this new torikumi committee seems to be living shaking things up, i wouldn't be surprised if most of the intra ozeki bouts wind up getting skipped. 

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57 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:
4 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Looking forward with interest at which bouts are skipped in coming days to help resolve an unclear yusho race... or I suppose they could let ichiyamamoto take it having only faced low maegashira

Considering how all the ozeki are doing, and considering that this new torikumi committee seems to be living shaking things up, i wouldn't be surprised if most of the intra ozeki bouts wind up getting skipped. 

I can understand why they do this but skipping intra-ozeki matches is something I find really annoying. Ozeki are being effectively rewarded for doing badly. Yes Shodai, I'm looking at you.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:
4 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Looking forward with interest at which bouts are skipped in coming days to help resolve an unclear yusho race... or I suppose they could let ichiyamamoto take it having only faced low maegashira

Considering how all the ozeki are doing, and considering that this new torikumi committee seems to be living shaking things up, i wouldn't be surprised if most of the intra ozeki bouts wind up getting skipped. 

I can understand why they do this but skipping intra-ozeki matches is something I find really annoying. Ozeki are being effectively rewarded for doing badly. Yes Shodai, I'm looking at you.

The sad part is, normally that's done to hand them a KK on a silver platter, but I don't know that the ozeki aren't going to lose those bouts either, the way at least two of them have been fighting this basho.

Edited by Seiyashi

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I can understand why they do this but skipping intra-ozeki matches is something I find really annoying. Ozeki are being effectively rewarded for doing badly. Yes Shodai, I'm looking at you.

I get what you mean, and I sympathise.  Ozeki should be put to the test – the full test – every tournament in order to prove their worth and live up to their status by doing superior sumo.

But..., on the other hand, there are plenty of fans – and perhaps kyokai members alike, who want to make sure that hira-maku championship contenders prove that they were put to a higher test in their bid to essentially "steal" the championship from the elite wrestlers on the banzuke.

In short, championships with rank-and-file contenders trump intra-Ozeki bouts.

What's more annoying: skipping intra-Ozeki matches or a hira-maku yusho winner that never faces an Ozeki?

Edited by Amamaniac
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Inosuke did the kaobure 3 days in a row, on days 7-9: it clearly is too much for him to do it every day. On day 9 his voice faltered and for the last bout he was about to announce Terutsuyoshi - he managed to fix it though. Today he took a rest.

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1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

Inosuke did the kaobure 3 days in a row, on days 7-9: it clearly is too much for him to do it every day. On day 9 his voice faltered and for the last bout he was about to announce Terutsuyoshi - he managed to fix it though. Today he took a rest.

I sincerely feel bad for Inosuke in a lot of ways. He must feel some pressure to continue on despite his age and infirmity, given the prestige factor of the job and the Kyokai’s focus on tradition. On the other hand, this basho has shown that he’s no longer up to the job. Many would say he hasn’t been up to the job for a while now, if ever, but it’s clear that he isn’t up to it at the present moment. He should retire and avoid tarnishing his reputation any further. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, at least he hasn't committed a sashi-chigae this basho... (Whistling...)

(No, I am not currently placing orders for crows; I already have one in the microwave ready to go)

Edited by Seiyashi

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1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

I get what you mean, and I sympathise.  Ozeki should be put to the test – the full test – every tournament in order to prove their worth and live up to their status by doing superior sumo.

But..., on the other hand, there are plenty of fans – and perhaps kyokai members alike, who want to make sure that hira-maku championship contenders prove that they were put to a higher test in their bid to essentially "steal" the championship from the elite wrestlers on the banzuke.

In short, championships with rank-and-file contenders trump intra-Ozeki bouts.

What's more annoying: skipping intra-Ozeki matches or a hira-maku yusho winner that never faces an Ozeki?

Given the ineptitude of the current crop of ozekis, I fail to see how matching them up for a series of gimmies would prove anything.  Look elsewhere for higher tests.  ;-)

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27 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Look elsewhere for higher tests.  ;-)

You mean the Shinpan? :-P

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Is there any info on what's wrong with Mitakeumi? He was on an upwards trajectory until this basho and suddenly he's looking like Takakeisho -- far from his peak power and ability. I find it hard to believe that he simply got a taste of the good ozeki (kadoban) life. There's gotta be a physical issue. 

Takakeisho himself displayed a stunning lack of judgment by trying to pull oshi specialist Hokutofuji. This bout should've been a gimme, but instead Hokutofuji got a surprise win. 

And speaking of lack of judgment, Hoshoryuu took the cake from Takakeisho today. I know he has some kind of pride or stubbornness that compels him to try and beat his opponent's strengths, but boy did that backfire today. 

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4 minutes ago, dingo said:

Takakeisho himself displayed a stunning lack of judgment by trying to pull oshi specialist Hokutofuji. This bout should've been a gimme, but instead Hokutofuji got a surprise win. 

 

A surprise win? In their H2H there were something like 9-11 in favor of Takakeisho. I don't see any surprise here.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Shodai drops to 3-7 and within one of kadoban. Takaeisho loses to go to 5-5; Mitakeumi goes up to 5-5 with a win.  The last time we had three Ozeki with 5+ losses by day 10 was July 1971 as far as I can tell.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&day=10&rank1=O&wins1=0-5

Wakatakakage keeps his Ozeki run alive by beating Shodai, though he will need to be perfect until Sunday to hit 10 wins.

If Shodai pulls off another kachikoshi this basho we'll have to change his name to Shoudini. 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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9 hours ago, since_94 said:

Today was stagger on your way back up onto the dohyo day, with Tsurugisho and Takakeisho leading the way by example. 
 

Meanwhile, Tokushoryu in sole possession of the lead in Juryo after day 10. I am so 100% down for a Tokushoryu yusho to stand alongside his unexpected Makuuchi triumph a while back and I know I’m not alone in this.

He already has a Juryo yusho to his name, tbf.

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50 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

He already has a Juryo yusho to his name, tbf.

Indeed.
 

But I never let facts dampen my enthusiasm.

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So uh, we finally have an explanation of the shimpan weirdness this basho:

Courtesy of Herouth RT Sasaki Ichiro of Nikkan Sports. TLDR: the shimpan in the video room usually can call verification mono-iis, by telling the head shimpan so. However, in Haru, a certain "influential oyakata" (not clear whether that oyakata was or was not a shimpan himself) said that the video room shimpan shouldn't call mono-iis. He was allegedly annoyed by a call the video room made (not clear whether the call was right or not).

Combined with the new shimpan department, that would explain why the mono-ii have been weird this basho. But this seems to have been fixed as of day 10, even though arguably it still wasn't working as well as it should have been. Herouth and some collaborators are trying to see if they can identify the bout responsible from Haru, but while we may assume it's a sekitori bout it might as well be a toriteki bout. In any case, keep eyes on that thread as there might be updates.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if there’s some unspoken adjustment for belatedly recognized bad calls, so perhaps Hoshoryu won’t be penalized too much for being robbed of his win over Shodai (who should be makekoshi and kadoban by now, let’s remember).

Edited by Eikokurai

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I wonder if there’s some unspoken adjustment for belatedly recognized bad calls, so perhaps Hoshoryu won’t be penalized too much for being robbed of his win over Shodai (who should be makekoshi and kadoban by now, let’s remember).

Not sure what that would be. His banzuke movement will be pretty deterministic based on KK vs. MK and whether any sekiwake slots come open. The only potential latitude could be in how far he'd drop were he finish MK, and they're pretty lenient with komusubi already.

Edited by Reonito

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3 minutes ago, Reonito said:
39 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I wonder if there’s some unspoken adjustment for belatedly recognized bad calls, so perhaps Hoshoryu won’t be penalized too much for being robbed of his win over Shodai (who should be makekoshi and kadoban by now, let’s remember).

Not sure what that would be. His banzuke movement will be pretty deterministic based on KK vs. MK and whether any sekiwake slots come open. The only potential latitude could be in how far he'd drop were he finish MK, and they're pretty lenient with komusubi already.

I think what was meant was an adjustment during the bashō itself, so for instance a bad call one way would be "credited" to the rikishi and that rikishi would be given some latitude for a doubtful bout result should he have one later in the bashō. For instance, Takakeishō should have one "dubious credit" now after that travesty against Wakatakakage, so if let's say later on he has a close call that might have been a torinaoshi he might just get the outright win instead.

While the idea is attractive, I don't credit the shimpan with enough on-the-spot flexibility to justify such a decision without looking bad or dubious themselves. It would really have to be a close call for the rikishi and not a outright close loss, otherwise the shimpan just look like they made a bad decision or a biased one.

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8 hours ago, dingo said:

Is there any info on what's wrong with Mitakeumi?

He turned into an Ozeki, that's all.

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2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Not sure what that would be. His banzuke movement will be pretty deterministic based on KK vs. MK and whether any sekiwake slots come open. The only potential latitude could be in how far he'd drop were he finish MK, and they're pretty lenient with komusubi already.

 

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

I think what was meant was an adjustment during the bashō itself, so for instance a bad call one way would be "credited" to the rikishi and that rikishi would be given some latitude for a doubtful bout result should he have one later in the bashō. For instance, Takakeishō should have one "dubious credit" now after that travesty against Wakatakakage, so if let's say later on he has a close call that might have been a torinaoshi he might just get the outright win instead.

While the idea is attractive, I don't credit the shimpan with enough on-the-spot flexibility to justify such a decision without looking bad or dubious themselves. It would really have to be a close call for the rikishi and not a outright close loss, otherwise the shimpan just look like they made a bad decision or a biased one.

Actually, I did just mean in terms of putting some credit in the bank re: demotion or promotion. If he ends 7-8, let’s say, they could note that as a false makekoshi and be more generous in how far he falls (same idea for promotion but obviously there’s not much space for him to go upwards).

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55 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

He turned into an Ozeki, that's all.

Well, some Ozeki also turn into Yokozuna... 

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I think what was meant was an adjustment during the bashō itself, so for instance a bad call one way would be "credited" to the rikishi and that rikishi would be given some latitude for a doubtful bout result should he have one later in the bashō. For instance, Takakeishō should have one "dubious credit" now after that travesty against Wakatakakage, so if let's say later on he has a close call that might have been a torinaoshi he might just get the outright win instead.

While the idea is attractive, I don't credit the shimpan with enough on-the-spot flexibility to justify such a decision without looking bad or dubious themselves. It would really have to be a close call for the rikishi and not a outright close loss, otherwise the shimpan just look like they made a bad decision or a biased one.

Having some kind of informal credit system like a shadow economy would undermine the whole system and turn into a travesty. Wins would be overturned based on some kind of dubious karma. Torinaoshi would be not awarded because someone owes someone else something based on an already questionable interpretation. Noone could count on not having a result overturned against them for murky reasons. It is always a bad idea to play favours in sports where the results need to be as clear cut as possible. Who would want to honestly compete in such an environment? 

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MAY 2022 (NATSU) BASHO LINKS AND STATISTICS BLOG--DAY 8

INTERESTING LINK IN THIS POST, FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T ALREADY SEEN IT. HAPPENED IN JONOKUCHI

The highlight is Yamato's (Jk10w) victory over Sato (Jk16e) in a re-match after the first match was too close to call. He used the rare Kimarite (finishing move), Tasukizori, (Reverse Backwards Body Drop) which has an overall rate of 0.06%. Since 2000, the Kimarite has been used 21 times (all divisions). This is the only time so far it has been used in this Basho.

Also,on Day 8, the match between Chiyoshoma and Takarafuji lasted longer than all of the Juryo matches combined:

123.8 seconds to 94.3 for 13 matches. 

Links to  archived Makuuchi Day 8 videos , photos, match articles, selected Rikishi quotes, match results, Kimarite and time statistics with comparisons to the March Basho. I have added match results and Kimarite statistics for Juryo. Also Top Rank performance, Maegashira v san'yaku, and Top Ten performance in Juryo. 

Have added Time of Match statistics for Juryo (no official source, so I used a stop watch app). Probably not exact, but close. Anyway, if anyone knows of an "official" source available in English please let me know. Hope it increases your enjoyment of the Basho. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, dingo said:

Well, some Ozeki also turn into Yokozuna... 

Not this current crop. 

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