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51 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Not recently. Shodai is an Ozeki for a reason.

11-4J, 13-2J, 8-7, 11-4, 13-2Y

Don't see any overpromotion with these numbers. The fact he has been rubbish as an ozeki shouldn't take away the merit of his promotion as NSK couldn't predict the future.

On the other hand, the one mentioned here several times as having had a soft promotion (Asanoyama), was the only ozeki to actually perform at ozeki level since Takayasu in 2018 (OK,  Teru was 2 basho at the rank before promotion).

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4 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I'm beginning to wonder. With Daieisho faltering and anyone else 3 basho away, he is likely their only chance to bolster the rank before next year if both kadoban Ozeki go MK. Hatsu 1993 is the only basho in the modern era in which they let the Y/O count drop to 2, and Takahanada looked poised to become Takanohana, which happened the very next basho...

Yeah stranger things have happened, for sure. If he got an 11-4 with wins over the current Y/O and/or a Y/JY it realistically wouldn't be a stretch. I think that's what it would take though, tbh, and that seems unlikely, however possible.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Asapedroryu said:

11-4J, 13-2J, 8-7, 11-4, 13-2Y

Don't see any overpromotion with these numbers. The fact he has been rubbish as an ozeki shouldn't take away the merit of his promotion as NSK couldn't predict the future.

On the other hand, the one mentioned here several times as having had a soft promotion (Asanoyama), was the only ozeki to actually perform at ozeki level since Takayasu in 2018 (OK,  Teru was 2 basho at the rank before promotion).

That first 11-4 was down at M10 so it doesn’t count. The four basho thereafter was his run, but 8-7 often nullifies a record like that 13-2J and resets the run. The Kyokai were charitable enough to discount it, which is why it can be seen as an over-promotion. That record in the era of the three Mongolian Yokozuna probably wouldn’t have been sufficient, I feel, as they wouldn’t have needed an Ozeki. (Though, otoh, a rikishi putting up those numbers with such competition arguably has a stronger case than now. Context is everything in sumo promotions.)

This is not to say I don’t think Shodai deserved the promotion. He did, and I argued for it at the time, but it’s also fair to say he benefited from the kindness of a Kyokai prepared to look past that 8-7. In another time, he’d have been told to show what he can do in one more basho, as Takakeisho was in his first attempt.

One more thing, just for clarity, when I think of “over-promotion” I’m not talking about the rikishi’s performance on the dohyo, but coming at if from the Kyokai’s banzuke-making perspective and comparing it to precedent. Was the promotion conventional or not? Shodai’s run was worthy, but hardly the norm. By ignoring that 8-7 but also counting a 13-2 from M4, they were exercising their discretion rather than following custom.

Edited by Eikokurai
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Gyoji and shimpan bowling report:

In jūryō, Gōnoyama sent Kitanowaka straight into Kimura Mitsunosuke. Then just recently, Chiyotairyū sent Takarafuji straight into his own shisho, Isegahama oyakata, with okuridashi. Isegahama was seen rubbing his neck shortly afterwards, so probably a bit of a bruise from the landing, but it was more amusing to see Takarafuji trying to avoid looking at Isegahama in the immediate aftermath.

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The irritating thing is, seeing as Shōdai has actually been looking like he's improving over the past two days, he might still actually get out of kadoban.

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7 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

That first 11-4 was down at M10 so it doesn’t count. The four basho thereafter was his run, but 8-7 often nullifies a record like that 13-2J and resets the run. The Kyokai were charitable enough to discount it, which is why it can be seen as an over-promotion. That record in the era of the three Mongolian Yokozuna probably wouldn’t have been sufficient, I feel, as they wouldn’t have needed an Ozeki. (Though, otoh, a rikishi putting up those numbers with such competition arguably has a stronger case than now. Context is everything in sumo promotions.)

This is not to say I don’t think Shodai deserved the promotion. He did, and I argued for it at the time, but it’s also fair to say he benefited from the kindness of a Kyokai prepared to look past that 8-7. In another time, he’d have been told to show what he can do in one more basho, as Takakeisho was in his first attempt.

One more thing, just for clarity, when I think of “over-promotion” I’m not talking about the rikishi’s performance on the dohyo, but coming at if from the Kyokai’s banzuke-making perspective and comparing it to precedent. Was the promotion conventional or not? Shodai’s run was worthy, but hardly the norm. By ignoring that 8-7 but also counting a 13-2 from M4, they were exercising their discretion rather than following custom.

Where on the unwritten rules of ozeki promotion says an 8-7 resets the run? Someone at sekiwake that does a 15-0, 8-7, 15-0 or 8-7, 15-0, 15-0 won't be promoted?

As you correctly mentioned,  context is everything in promotion and the context here is that he got 4 double digits in 5, including 1Y and 2J. Had he not had his 2 double digits on basho 4 and 5, then it could be considered a charitable or overpromotion to do it on a 32 win run, when the unwritten rule says 33.

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1 minute ago, Katooshu said:

That kotenage looked........painful

Tottari, I think. I too thought it was a kotenage but both the NHK commentator and the gyoji called it as tottari. Is the difference where you grab on the arm?

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So, elephant in the room for today - Ichinojō's hairpull hansoku against Takakeishō.

Shimpan setsumei said it was incidental so gunbai dori. But what makes an "incidental" hairpull when the rule as we understand it is that a hairpull is an automatic foul? Takakeishō's mage was indeed quite mussed, you could see on the replay when his head went down in tandem with Ichinojō's hand, and Ichinojō's fingers did look hooked in the replay.

That said, Takakeishō's hand immediately went to his head in the aftermath of the bout, presumably hoping to signal the hairpull - and it seemed to have worked.

Thoughts? FWIW Takakeishō should have won; the ruling today just makes the hairpull rule really murky IMO.

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Posted (edited)

Clean win in my opinion, a slap rather than a grab and tug on the hair. Smacking someone can mess their hair up and jolt their head too...

Edit: Seeing it now from another angle, it's more damning for Ichi. Fingers definitely got tangled in the hair.

Edited by Katooshu

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I saw an incidental mage tangle that somewhat disturbed Takakeisho's balance. Unintentional, but as the rule stands today should.have been a hansoku. 

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2 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

I saw an incidental mage tangle that somewhat disturbed Takakeisho's balance. Unintentional, but as the rule stands today should.have been a hansoku. 

Yeah that's my point. Takakeishō might not have been graceful about it, but if everyone understood the rule to be "(not open) hand in hair = mage pull = hansoku" then he was well within his rights to complain about it.

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28 minutes ago, Asapedroryu said:

Where on the unwritten rules of ozeki promotion says an 8-7 resets the run?

It doesn't.

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Posted (edited)

I only saw one angle of replay, but from that angle Ichinojo's hand was clearly open the whole time. He basically slapped his mage, there was no grab and pull.

Edit: Seeing it now from another angle, it's more damning for Ichi. Fingers definitely got tangled in the hair.

Edited by Katooshu

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19 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Shimpan setsumei said it was incidental so gunbai dori. But what makes an "incidental" hairpull when the rule as we understand it is that a hairpull is an automatic foul? Takakeishō's mage was indeed quite mussed, you could see on the replay when his head went down in tandem with Ichinojō's hand, and Ichinojō's fingers did look hooked in the replay.

The head shimpan never says "incidental" - he just said he didn't grab. No grabbing, no hansoku.

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Posted (edited)

Angles are so important - from one angle it looked like nothing, from the other you can see Ichi's fingers get tangled in the hair and pull a strand of it. It's' not like he was clenching a handful of hair, but it did look like Takakeisho's head was tugged down as a result.

Edited by Katooshu

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I wonder if Ichinojo is still giving Terunofuji his freebie now that he's in the lead? That would be very lame but I wouldn't be surprised.

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Oh, they properly muddied the hansoku waters with that call...

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56 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Thoughts? FWIW Takakeishō should have won; the ruling today just makes the hairpull rule really murky IMO.

That rule has always been murky along with the shini-tai (dead body) rule. And as you know, sumo / Japan has a lot of 'unwritten' rules. 

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Put the "Ichi-Gate" among my comments for Day 4.

Tamawashi dropped one. He seems to suffer Sadanoumi more than I expected. All the better for Sadanoumi, considering he got his first win for this basho.

Wakatakakage much wasted his chances to become Ozeki with today's loss against Abi. He actually put some good resistance, but Abi pushed and pushed and pulled the brick house down sent Wakatakakage out. Granted, he can STILL make 12-3, but he needs to win against the Ozeki (easy mode) and Terunofuji (no chance in hell mode) not to mention the rest of the joy. On the bright side, if he really manages to pull all this stuff he'd make a really good case for his promotion. I'm not going to bet my house over it, though. Tomorrow Wakatakakage vs. Hoshoryu (5-3) aka the Battle of the Hapless San'yaku.

Talk about Hoshoryu. He handled Shodai his first win, what a charitable boy. Shodai still presents a very erratic style, but this time he fought up and caught one win. Let's see if he manages to rack enough of these to get KK. Tomorrow Wakamotoharu vs. Shodai (no precedents), both 1-3.

Ozeki Mitakeshoma Mitakeumi got wily and did a HNH on Kiribayama. Guess he really wants to remain Ozeki, injured shoulder or not. I like it. Mitakeumi vs. Ura tomorrow (3-0).

And now we come to Takakeisho vs. Ichinojo, aka The Ichi-Gate. Although Ichinojo could have tangled some hair, he was clearly slapping. We are miles away from his clear hair pull again against Takakeisho a few bashos ago. Sure, it's hair pull technically. But in my opinion calling every accidental entanglement a hair pull is excessive. I am good with Ichinojo as the winner. Tomorrow Takakeisho vs. Tamawashi (11-7-1), perhaps the second most important bout of Day 5.

Last, Terunofuji handled Kotonowaka easily. Tomorrow the grand showdown Terunofuji vs. Ichinojo. We will see whether 'Nojo is interested in winning a yusho or not.

To resume, Wakatakakage did a very nasty job until now. This night (night in Europe) many commented about kadoban Ozeki and relaxed rules. Although I believe that a 12-3 with a win against Terunofuji would do (well, we are talking about school theories), today we should question whether we are going to face any shortage of Ozeki anytime soon. Shodai is working up his style, and Mitakeumi will be damned if he won't get his KK. Takakeisho is also fine. I won't be surprised to see them KK this basho.

About the yusho race, it's wide open with Tamawashi losing his bout (and Aoiyama, for sure). I think nobody believes that Ichiyamamoto and Nishikigi will keep with their 4-0 stint until the end. Ichinojo, on the other hand, will have a dramatic moment as he will choose between friendship and a very big cup. Were I Minato-oyakata, I would tell him it's filled with ice cream. This should work for Ichinojo.

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1 hour ago, Asapedroryu said:

Where on the unwritten rules of ozeki promotion says an 8-7 resets the run? Someone at sekiwake that does a 15-0, 8-7, 15-0 or 8-7, 15-0, 15-0 won't be promoted?

As you correctly mentioned,  context is everything in promotion and the context here is that he got 4 double digits in 5, including 1Y and 2J. Had he not had his 2 double digits on basho 4 and 5, then it could be considered a charitable or overpromotion to do it on a 32 win run, when the unwritten rule says 33.

You want me to cite unwritten rules? That will be difficult. 

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1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

I only saw one angle of replay, but from that angle Ichinojo's hand was clearly open the whole time. He basically slapped his mage, there was no grab and pull.

Edit: Seeing it now from another angle, it's more damning for Ichi. Fingers definitely got tangled in the hair.

It did and there was a pull. But, the head went down from the slap  which dislodged the hair falling into his hand as he finished the slap motion and his hand got caught in hair. Still a foul though. 

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Kinbozan one win away from sekitori !

Up to makuuchi, Shodai is showing some life, thats nice. Tomorrow vs Wakamotoharu, i'm rly curious to see how the later will perform vs an ozeki.WTK vs Hoshoryu with both needing win badly could be fun. I hope for no henka this time :-D

For the yusho race, it's hard to bet against Terunofuji. Let's see if Ichinojo can keep this pace

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Tottari, I think. I too thought it was a kotenage but both the NHK commentator and the gyoji called it as tottari. Is the difference where you grab on the arm?

Sorry for the question, but does the gyoji announce the winning technique?

this is new to me…

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Just now, Old Shatterhand is dead said:

Sorry for the question, but does the gyoji announce the winning technique?

this is new to me…

Sorry, I meant the kimarite announcers, who are gyoji, just not in the usual dress and sitting in business wear somewhere.

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