Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

This is a little detail that I've always found both fascinating and underrated. There's a very thin balance between having enough bravery or a death wish, but we can also easily tell when a rikishi isn't willing to put his all into it just by that.

Goeido for example - he gave away a bunch of losses on his last couple of basho due to being so quick to pull the trigger in this peculiar game of chicken, even from otherwise advantageous positions that'd give him the shiroboshi had both just gone belly first into the ground. That was an early sign he was mentally done with the dohyo.

The other famous one was Asanoyama's bout with Kakuryū in his ōzeki run, where the yokozuna's experience was much more obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Amamaniac said:

What would have happened if both wrestlers in one torikumi match-up had been forced to withdraw?  How would that have been handled in terms of white star and black star decisions?

Been there, done that:

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/41676-nagoya-2022/?do=findComment&comment=472639

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

I could be wrong because I wasn't listening closely, but the commentator just said that it was their first kyujo since they entered sumo. I also thought he said that Tamawashi's streak would continue (継続する) but if mistaken someone please correct me. 

They said that, but he will still have a fusenpai in the middle of that streak, unless the whole Basho gets nullified and all results not officially recorded.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

So here is a hypothetical question for the sumo pundits on this forum:

The Top Division matches for day 13 were set presumably before the day 12 bouts were even fought.  Then came the sluw of Covid-related forced kyujo (7 wrestlers in total).  What would have happened if both wrestlers in one torikumi match-up had been forced to withdraw?  How would that have been handled in terms of white star and black star decisions?

Courtesy of @Asashosakari

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&year=199301,199503&shikona1=Yagami,Yakaze&shikona2=Odagawa,Okinoishi

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

What a bland day, really. At this point we can actually play the "guess the next COVID-ridden heya" for the next two days. Because I doubt they will stop just at this point.

Anyway, a couple things happened. Wakamotoharu hit the famous Maakuchi wall for the first time, or better saying the joy wall. About the others, Ichinojo walked on a freebie, Takakeisho bested Shodai, and Terunofuji dispatched Wakatakakage easily. That's the day.

Tomorrow four Juryo guys up for a visit, as Rocks pointed out. Sumo traditionalism going back to its roots when Makushita came directly after Maakuchi, basically. About the bouts themselves - admitting they will actually take place -, Ichinojo is paired vs. Meisei (4-6). Negative record, but this Ichinojo and this Meisei both deviate from their standards. KK Hoshoryu will face poor 7-6 Tochinoshin, suddenly jeeted against the joy. That's quite insensible. And for the musubi no ichiban, Terunofuji will see how much Shodai is interested in a 9th win.

Honestly, pairings have become more and more uneven by the day. I cannot even fathom the morale of the rikishi themselves. Waiting the morning COVID test with fear only to be paired with someone they would not even dream to face this tournament. There is no fair game anymore. For instance, is Tochinoshin supposed to get his KK against Hoshoryu and God knows who will he be paired on Day 15? Be good and just call Ichinojo and Terunofuji for an early playoff, give the yusho to the winner and call it a day.

Edited by Hankegami
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i didnt know that there's anything 'beyond ridiculous'

exciting expression ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

Not as bad as when MLB players went on strike and the "replacements" filled in the void.   

Ooh, good idea. Let the forum members step in. Yusho winner gets bragging rights on here for years.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

Be good and just call Ichinojo and Terunofuji for an early playoff, give the yusho to the winner and call it a day.

Takakeisho would certainly not vote for that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I've been considering the implications of freezing the banzuke (i.e. stick with the current one for Aki), as the cleanest way to avoid a fubar mess. The Nagoya basho happened, but it's not canon: nothing on record.

I can just imagine Tokitsukaze-san breaking it to Shodai: "It is what it is. You're still kadoban."

Edited by RabidJohn
  • Haha 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

Sumo traditionalism going back to its roots when Makushita came directly after Maakuchi, basically.

I wasn't aware of that tradition.  Care to elaborate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:
1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

Sumo traditionalism going back to its roots when Makushita came directly after Maakuchi, basically.

I wasn't aware of that tradition.  Care to elaborate?

Jūryō didn't exist, hence makushita was named such as it was "below the curtain" that was makuuchi.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I've been considering the implications of freezing the banzuke (i.e. stick with the current one for Aki), as the cleanest way to avoid a fubar mess.

I can just imagine Tokitsukaze-san breaking it to Shodai: "It is what it is. You're still kadoban."

On the other hand, there are some changes in status that ought to be respected, like Kinbōzan for Ishiura and Ryūden + 1 for Daiamami and Chiyomaru. So more and more I'm coming round to the view that the banzuke records should just be extrapolated for those who were kyūjō halfway due to COVID.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

On the other hand, there are some changes in status that ought to be respected, like Kinbōzan for Ishiura and Ryūden + 1 for Daiamami and Chiyomaru. So more and more I'm coming round to the view that the banzuke records should just be extrapolated for those who were kyūjō halfway due to COVID.

If the net result of wins vs losses is used in the lower divisions, i.e. a 4-1-2 being considered a +3 so equivalent to a 5-2, making the next banzuke is going to be funky.

If, say, a lower division rikishi was +2 at the time of withdrawal (3-1 or 4-2), how are they going to judge where to put them? +2 is a score we never get in those divisions. Assuming they go all the way, it's always an odd number. 4-3=1, 5-2=3, 6-1=5, 7-0=7 and viceversa for makekoshi. I'm actually very curious.

Edited by Koorifuu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

If the net result of wins vs losses is used in the lower divisions, i.e. a 4-1-2 being considered a +3 so equivalent to a 5-2, making the next banzuke is going to be funky.

If, say, a lower division rikishi was +2 at the time of withdrawal (3-1 or 4-2), how are they going to judge where to put them? +2 is a score we never get in those divisions. It's always an odd number. 4-3=1, 5-2=3, 6-1=6, 7-0=7 and viceversa for makekoshi. I'm actually very curious.

I mean, if the net score is what is used to place them, then higher than a +1 normally but not as high as a +3? AFAIK this is pretty unprecedented on such a scale.

The other bugbear I have is the fusen losses for those who didn't manage to get their torikumi redone. So for instance Kotoekō and Kotoshōhō are both 5-6-2 now, but they were 5-5 just before they were benched. Do they go down simply because they weren't fortunate enough to be 5-4 before the fusen loss?

Edited by Seiyashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

On the other hand, there are some changes in status that ought to be respected, like Kinbōzan for Ishiura and Ryūden + 1 for Daiamami and Chiyomaru. So more and more I'm coming round to the view that the banzuke records should just be extrapolated for those who were kyūjō halfway due to COVID.

I think that the most fair thing they can come up to is A) promote/demote those with a full KK/MK; B) "read the room" and bestow a fiduciary KK to those very close to it when retired or anyway with a very promising outlook, e.g. Kotonowaka; C) do the same with the ill-looking guys and gave them a technical MK; D) rikishi retired early in the tournament have their rank frozen, e.g. Mitakeumi as the highest-ranking profile.

A solution along these lines would allow to make well-deserved promotions without ruffling too many feathers.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I mean, if the net score is what is used to place them, then higher than a +1 normally but not as high as a +3? AFAIK this is pretty unprecedented on such a scale.

The other bugbear I have is the fusen losses for those who didn't manage to get their torikumi redone. So for instance Kotoekō and Kotoshōhō are both 5-6-2 now, but they were 5-5 just before they were benched. Do they go down simply because they weren't fortunate enough to be 5-4 before the fusen loss?

It gets more peculiar from there. Even if they don't take those fusenpai into consideration, those who got the fusensho will have still benefitted from it. It'd inflate everyone's results, records will generally be more positive than usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

I think that the most fair thing they can come up to is A) promote/demote those with a full KK/MK; B) "read the room" and bestow a fiduciary KK to those very close to it when retired or anyway with a very promising outlook, e.g. Kotonowaka; C) do the same with the ill-looking guys and gave them a technical MK; D) rikishi retired early in the tournament have their rank frozen, e.g. Mitakeumi as the highest-ranking profile.

A solution along these lines would allow to make well-deserved promotions without ruffling too many feathers.

While I generally agree, where do you draw the line at early in a tournament - before nakabi? That line risks becoming arbitrary. Not that that's usually a problem, but it's a nest of hornets you don't need to stir up.

For all its imperfections, extrapolating records is probably still better. The only ones left frozen should be those like Mishima who's now 2-2-2, or other similar cases in the lower divisions.

Just now, Koorifuu said:

It gets more peculiar from there. Even if they don't take those fusenpai into consideration, those who got the fusensho will have still benefitted from it. It'd inflate everyone's results, records will generally be more positive than usual.

Groan. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

Edited by Seiyashi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I don't really see a logical way you apply these records to banzuke making that is fair. In some way those left have benefitted greatly by those leaving even if not by direct fusen win. You ran a basho so someone has to be a winner in each division. Give the winner their prize money. Otherwise just reuse the same banzuke for Aki. The only ones I would say this is unfair to is the 2 ms1. Ishiura should go done regardless so that leaves 4=3 Takakento. Leave him at ms1 and pay him a Juryo salary until the next basho as compensation. No sansho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They won't cancel the basho at this point anymore. This will go on until the bitter end,no matter how ridiculous it gets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Groan. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

Admit it, you're enjoying trying to work it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason that there are so many Juryo visitors is an old regulation that requires them to have at least a certain number of Makuuchi matches scheduled each day.  It's not usually an issue since the division is larger now. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Yeah, I don't really see a logical way you apply these records to banzuke making that is fair. In some way those left have benefitted greatly by those leaving even if not by direct fusen win. You ran a basho so someone has to be a winner in each division. Give the winner their prize money. Otherwise just reuse the same banzuke for Aki. The only ones I would say this is unfair to is the 2 ms1. Ishiura should go done regardless so that leaves 4=3 Takakento. Leave him at ms1 and pay him a Juryo salary until the next basho as compensation. No sansho.

This was going to be a rough basho on sekitori aspirants regardless of COVID kyujos. All the new boys down in J13 and J14 were on the positive side of the scoreboard throughout, so barring any late basho Oshoma meltdown, it was always going to take a terrible score from someone >J12 to send them down. Kinbozan going 6-0 on ms1 didn't help, either. Kanno and Roga were just rather unlucky their much awaited breakthrough promotable scores happened in this basho.

Your point that some of them got freebie fusensho wins might've helped avoid those terrible scores got merit, but I personally don't think it'd have made a significant difference here.

16 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

The reason that there are so many Juryo visitors is an old regulation that requires them to have at least a certain number of Makuuchi matches scheduled each day.  It's not usually an issue since the division is larger now. 

 

I checked the post-purge Natsu 2011 basho to try and find a reference, with seven vacant slots, and even so... it was never anywhere this bad. There was one juryo visitor per day, which turned into two near the end as current Naruto-oyakata waved the white flag on day 12. Everyone else was genki and there were no more absences.

Edited by Koorifuu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Andonishiki said:

i didnt know that there's anything 'beyond ridiculous'

exciting expression ;)

This is disturbing.  I didn't start the Ridiculous Predictions thread this basho, but now I'm glad I didn't (it would feel like gallows humor by now).  However, if we're going to have to adjudicate which posts go in the Ridiculous and Beyond Ridiculous Predictions, well ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How depressing is bridegroom Shimanoumi's performance this basho?  He was defeated by Chiyomaru's first successful uwatedashinage in 999 bouts.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now