Benevolance

Haru 2022 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!)

Recommended Posts

So … Terunofuji as Yokozuna-Ozeki in May?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

anyone keeping count on sashi-chigae by has-to-be-worst tate gyoji?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Gernobono said:

anyone keeping count on sashi-chigae by has-to-be-worst tate gyoji?

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/式守伊之助_(41代)#軍配差し違え

The JP wiki has a... rather embarrassing litany of them, 12 to date. Translation:

  • Before promotion to tate-gyoji (3)
    • 2018.01.01: Kisenosato v Takakeisho
    • 2018.07.12: Mitakeumi v Takayasu
    • 2018.11.04: Kisenosato v Tochiozan
  • After promotion (9)
    • 2019.09.06: Tochinoshin - Tamawashi
    • 2019.11.15: Mitakeumi v Abi
    • 2020.01.08: Goeido v Abi
    • 2020.03.14: Kakuryu v Asanoyama
    • 2021.01.11: Okinoumi v Shodai
      • Verbal rejection of resignation by Hakkaku
    • 2021.05.14: Endo v Terunofuji
      • Terunofuji got the gunbai, but 3 1/2 mins of mono-ii, followed by conclusion that Terunofuji touched first. 6th sashichigae.
    • 2022.01.04: Wakatakakage - Shodai
      • Wakatakakage thought to have won by yorikiri, but he was found to have committed isamiashi during the mono-ii.
    • 2022.01.09: Meisei v Shodai
      • Shodai executed an utchari, but touched down first; NHK said that Meisei won. But the gunbai went to Shodai, which was overturned. Inosuke claimed he got mixed up between east and west. The tate-gyoji having two sashichigaes in one basho was rather unusual. Hakkaku commented that "the isamisashi couldn't be helped, but he had to be firm today [in rebuking the gyoji]". The resignation was again verbally rejected.
    • 2022.03.03: Terunofuji v Ura

While I'm down this rabbit hole, the JP wiki also apparently tracks how many times he's fallen off the dohyo. 5 times total: 1 in 2009, 2 in 2019, and 2 in 2021. Somewhat impressively, he has never done a sashichigae on any of those occasions, even though it might be more excusable then. The article also has a list of other blunders like contact with rikishi, losing his zori...

He however has got a surprising, legitimate claim to fame: he was the first sanyaku gyoji to judge the musubi in over 20 years, and did it thrice to boot.

Edited by Seiyashi
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will be an interesting basho. No one at the very top looks great, even Mitakeumi who seems to be getting all the breaks so far. Other Ozekis look bad and  Terunofuji looks a bit weak. Normally he would have pushed Ura out there without even having to move forward and go out. Abi looked great against a confident 2-0 Kiribayama. Blew him away. Wakatakkage and Takaysu look very good so far. Unfortunate for Ishiura to jam his neck. It's good to see him going hard and strong forward but he still needs to apply some finesse against the really big guys. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

And this is the how many-th basho in a row that Shikimori Inosuke has gone sashichigae again?

Yeah, I was thinking that too... don't have the stats but it seems to be every basho. Looked fairly obvious to me on first viewing that Ura's heel went out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

After promotion (9)

  • 2019.09.06: Tochinoshin - Tamawashi
  • 2019.11.15: Mitakeumi v Abi
  • 2020.01.08: Goeido v Abi
  • 2020.03.14: Kakuryu v Asanoyama
  • 2021.01.11: Okinoumi v Shodai
    • Verbal rejection of resignation by Hakkaku
  • 2021.05.14: Endo v Terunofuji
    • Terunofuji got the gunbai, but 3 1/2 mins of mono-ii, followed by conclusion that Terunofuji touched first. 6th sashichigae.
  • 2022.01.04: Wakatakakage - Shodai
    • Wakatakakage thought to have won by yorikiri, but he was found to have committed isamiashi during the mono-ii.
  • 2022.01.09: Meisei v Shodai
    • Shodai executed an utchari, but touched down first; NHK said that Meisei won. But the gunbai went to Shodai, which was overturned. Inosuke claimed he got mixed up between east and west. The tate-gyoji having two sashichigaes in one basho was rather unusual. Hakkaku commented that "the isamisashi couldn't be helped, but he had to be firm today [in rebuking the gyoji]". The resignation was again verbally rejected.
  • 2022.03.03: Terunofuji v Ura

 

Based on the above record, Inosuke was averaging two sashichigae call reversals per year.  This year, he already has three such bad calls, and the year has virtually just started!  

In January, he automatically ruled in favour of the Ozeki Shodai, and got burned twice.  Today, he tried a different strategy: rule against the higher-ranked opponent.  Clearly, that was a mistake.  

Part of the problem is ring positioning.  Inosuke had his back turned to the wrestlers when the bout was decided.  He had no way to make the right call.  It all came down to the 50-50 guess.  All I can say is that Inosuke better stay away from gambling parlours...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Nishikigi Yusho - you heard it here first. B-)

" ... and exclusively!"

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Based on the above record, Inosuke was averaging two sashichigae call reversals per year.  This year, he already has three such bad calls, and the year has virtually just started!  

In January, he automatically ruled in favour of the Ozeki Shodai, and got burned twice.  Today, he tried a different strategy: rule against the higher-ranked opponent.  Clearly, that was a mistake.  

Part of the problem is ring positioning.  Inosuke had his back turned to the wrestlers when the bout was decided.  He had no way to make the right call.  It all came down to the 50-50 guess.  All I can say is that Inosuke better stay away from gambling parlours...  

To be fair to Inosuke, two sashichigae a year doesn't sound particularly bad in and of itself, outside of the regularity. At any rate, we don't really have a baseline for comparison: the JP wiki doesn't list sashichigae extensively for the other sanyaku gyoji, but I definitely recall Kimura Konosuke making at least one sashichigae recently, and I would be more surprised if any of the sanyaku gyoji kept a clean sheet on a year-by-year basis, or even since their promotion.

That said, three this year already is really terrible, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Ishiura's injury, I noticed him grimacing just after the taichi-ai and not resisting after that.
Maybe his injury was on contact with Kotonowaka rather than falling down out of the doyho ?

2022-03_D03_Ishiura.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Oortael said:

Regarding Ishiura's injury, I noticed him grimacing just after the taichi-ai and not resisting after that.
Maybe his injury was on contact with Kotonowaka rather than falling down out of the doyho ?

2022-03_D03_Ishiura.jpg

Yeah, no doubt about it. Kotonowaka was slow to realise something was wrong and ejected Ishiura with a lot more force than he should have - resisting rikishi do not go flying like that. He was no Ichinojo, that's for sure.

In fact, if you watch the tachiai from a lateral angle, you can actually see Ishiura's head get jarred from the start. The moment they make contact, Ishiura doesn't move his head at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

To be fair to Inosuke, two sashichigae a year doesn't sound particularly bad in and of itself, outside of the regularity. At any rate, we don't really have a baseline for comparison

The baseline of comparison is a good point. Also, we don't know how many of his calls were reviewed on monoii and finally confirmed. If he's 90% right on very close calls, that's not terrible to miss a couple a times a year. But if he's below 50% then ...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Oortael said:

The baseline of comparison is a good point. Also, we don't know how many of his calls were reviewed on monoii and finally confirmed. If he's 90% right on very close calls, that's not terrible to miss a couple a times a year. But if he's below 50% then ...

Plus there are sashichigae and then there are sashichigae: Hakkaku's comments last basho suggest sashichigae for reasons of hansoku and hiwaza aren't really that bad. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe gyoji are allowed to call hansoku, and not that many spot hiwaza anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Plus there are sashichigae and then there are sashichigae

usually i do not follow the gyoji. but even that i realize that many sashi chigae stand out for being very rare. maybe i cannot remember them, but i am quite sure there wer not as many sashichigae from all the tategyoji since i started watching sumo closely in 2000 as there are for the current one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never used to follow sumo as closely as I do now, so I've no basis for directly comparing gyoji of the past with those of today. That said, there hasn't been a Kimura Shonosuke since I started watching again in late 2015, so evidently the NSK has reservations about the current crop.

Sadly, even the much-loved-by-the-forum-members Konosuke has blotted his copybook on several occasions since his sanyaku promotion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the gyoji were infallible we wouldn't need shimpan. Sumo adopts a "belt and braces" approach which seems to work pretty well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something I noticed after the judges overturned Shikimori Inosuke's call on the Terunofuji v. Ura bout: after the sashichigae reversal was announced, Inosuke climbed back up onto the ring without pointing his gumbai towards Terunofuji.  Usually, gyoji will acknowledge the call change with their gumbai to rectify their mistake.  Is the tategyoji not required to follow this tradition, or was that just another sign of Inosuke's failure to perform his duties?  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Something I noticed after the judges overturned Shikimori Inosuke's call on the Terunofuji v. Ura bout: after the sashichigae reversal was announced, Inosuke climbed back up onto the ring without pointing his gumbai towards Terunofuji.  Usually, gyoji will acknowledge the call change with their gumbai to rectify their mistake.  Is the tategyoji not required to follow this tradition, or was that just another sign of Inosuke's failure to perform his duties?  

Reality: Probably the second one. He isn't showing the best signs in general 

What REALLY happened: Inosuke is a big hater of Terunofuji and wants to see his downfall. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the start of the tournament, a friend expressed his view that Takayasu has a great chance to win the Top Division championship this month.  His reasoning is based primarily on his prediction that we will see a lacklustre 12-3 yusho record, given the general weakness expected from the wrestlers at the top.  Takayasu is well rested, and he is situated at a favourable (to him) rank on the banzuke.  If Takayasu pulls it off, it will represent his first ever Top Division championship.  As storylines go, that would generate significant buzz.

Frankly, Takayasu has disappointed me one too many times in the past, so I have some reservations about the possibility of a Papa Yasu victory.  Perhaps I should give my friend more credit.  Takayasu is after all off to a perfect start!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

At the start of the tournament, a friend expressed his view that Takayasu has a great chance to win the Top Division championship this month.  His reasoning is based primarily on his prediction that we will see a lacklustre 12-3 yusho record, given the general weakness expected from the wrestlers at the top.  Takayasu is well rested, and he is situated at a favourable (to him) rank on the banzuke.  If Takayasu pulls it off, it will represent his first ever Top Division championship.  As storylines go, that would generate significant buzz.

Frankly, Takayasu has disappointed me one too many times in the past, so I have some reservations about the possibility of a Papa Yasu victory.  Perhaps I should give my friend more credit.  Takayasu is after all off to a perfect start!

I'll believe it after he goes 12-0. That 10-2 choke this time last year is still the stuff of nightmares. I cry on his behalf thinking about it.

Edited by Seiyashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same procedure as last basho

On 17/01/2022 at 17:48, Akinomaki said:

Inosuke handed in his retirement request as customary (in case of a tate-gyoji sashi-chigae, instead of using his short sword), and also as the custom dictates, Hakkaku dissuaded him from leaving his job. This 2nd sashi-chigae today after the isami-ashi of Wakatakakage vs. Shodai on day 4 was blatant, one for isami-ashi is usually permissible.

This is the 8th sashi-chigae for the 41st Inosuke, the 40th was suspended for 3 days after 2 sashi-chigae Kyushu 2015, the 29th who had many sashi-chigae was suspended for the first 3 days of Hatsu 2000. The 40th had 4 sashichigae in 3 basho.

https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2022/01/17/kiji/20220117s00005000454000c.html

The articles tells that it is seen as that Hakkaku dissuaded him, with top shimpan Isegahama present. https://www.sankei.com/article/20220315-Z2IBEMFX6FNIFCXC75PVKA5MFE/

I think it is high time for a suspension. But the one with the nickname "the sashi-chigae Inosuke" was the 29th, he even once forgot to hand in his informal resignation. Unfortunately I couldn't find a list of all his sashi-chigae like for the present Inosuke, he had about 20 apparently https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q11258777241

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

That said, there hasn't been a Kimura Shonosuke since I started watching again in late 2015, so evidently the NSK has reservations about the current crop.


It has nothing to do with that. The Kyokai aren't just going to pick a gyoji to promote - promotions are by seniority. Kimura Tamajiro will be the 42nd Inosuke, but that can't happen until the incumbent is either promoted or retires. I should like to point out (again) that the 41st Inosuke suffered a cerebral infarction in summer 2020, and it is since then that his performance has declined.

It's a sad irony, if things had played out normally and the 40th Inosuke hadn't been forced out by scandal, then the 41st would likely have never become Shonosuke anyway as he's three months older. As it is, the position is vacant but he might never get to it.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apropos of nothing, but today's bout and aftermath made it clearer than ever that Kyokutaisei really needs to hang it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Apropos of nothing, but today's bout and aftermath made it clearer than ever that Kyokutaisei really needs to hang it up.

As sad as it is, this sounds about right. At his age and considering the obvious long term injuries, it's very unlikely the way is up.

This stinks, I really enjoyed watching him about two years ago. He seemed to be in the form of his life and on his way to a late-blooming new career peak and then BAM! It all went downhill from September 2020.

Edited by Koorifuu
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So what are the chances that Shodai pulls out and shoots for 10 wins next tournament? I cant see him beating a 0-3 Ura.

Also, kinda surprised that Endo and Ishiura have never faced each other before. Unfortunately, we won't get to see it tomorrow either. 

Edited by nelimw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now