Benevolance

Haru 2022 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!)

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, hakutorizakura said:

Is Takayasu crumbling already? Hope not!

Takayasu's win streak probably had to come to an end sooner or later.  

With 10 wins in 10 days, he had a one-win cushion, but that cushion just got vaporised by an energised contender, Wakatakakage.  If Takayasu loses to Mitakeumi tomorrow, it will all but crush Takayasu's yusho dream IMHO.  A Mitakeumi win is more than likely, ... but there is also a remote possibility of an upset.  

Quick poll: what are the odds of a Takayasu championship at this point in the tournament?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Takayasu's win streak probably had to come to an end sooner or later.  

With 10 wins in 10 days, he had a one-win cushion, but that cushion just got vaporised by an energised contender, Wakatakakage.  If Takayasu loses to Mitakeumi tomorrow, it will all but crush Takayasu's yusho dream IMHO.  A Mitakeumi win is more than likely, ... but there is also a remote possibility of an upset.  

Quick poll: what are the odds of a Takayasu championship at this point in the tournament?

IMO very dependent on his match against Mitakeumi, not for the numbers but more as a bellwether of his mental state. If he beats Mitakeumi, he has the necessary confidence booster to write off the loss to Wakatakakage and stay in the lead. If he doesn't, then he not only has to play catchup but the spectre of Haru 2021 is going to play on him terribly for his day 13 match, and I don't see him dealing with that well.

For sumō fandom in general, though, the yūshō arasoi is turning out to be an excellent one. All 6 rikishi involved are either past ōzeki, current ōzeki, and, not implausibly, future ōzeki. Apart from Tochinoshin (whose win would really be a dark horse, and who of the 6 is arguably the closest to retirement by quite a margin), any of them winning could mark the beginning of a promotion.

Jūryō's arasoi is also looking to be a real stormer, with 4 rikishi in the lead and 4 more playing catchup, including Ōhō and Enhō from one behind.

Edited by Seiyashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Oshirokita said:

One more giant killer (before he fell to Juryo):

Shohozan - 5 kinboshi, 18 ginboshi

You seem to know where ginboshi records are kept, and I think I heard of such a place but it's slipped my mind. Care to remind me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Yarimotsu said:
15 hours ago, Oshirokita said:

One more giant killer (before he fell to Juryo):

Shohozan - 5 kinboshi, 18 ginboshi

You seem to know where ginboshi records are kept, and I think I heard of such a place but it's slipped my mind. Care to remind me?

The DB is 404 right now, but how I would do it is to go to bout query, set maegashira (and/or junior sanyaku) rank for rikishi 1, set ōzeki rank for the losing rikishi 2, and then group by rikishi 1.

Combining the kinboshi and ginboshi records might not be possible on the bout query interface alone, but you could run two searches then eyeball the top results.

Edited by Seiyashi
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Shodai is in the black for the first time this basho. 

No, no, Shodai has been in black all basho!

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

There's also this little frisson in the hanamichi after the musubi today:

https://twitter.com/OneLoveLulit/status/1506558244072099844

(Rich link isn't working, but it's a shot of Kotonowaka and Takakeishō both venting some frustration.)

While I could fully understand Kotonowaka's frustration being made to look like a rookie (which in some ways he still is), Takakeisho's pounding on the metal grating post bout made little sense.  All I can come up with it that he was getting on his own case wondering why he didn't fight that way earlier in the tournament...  But he should have been happy that he dispatched a tournament contender, and ... didn't suffer another humiliating ginboshi loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

While I could fully understand Kotonowaka's frustration being made to look like a rookie (which in some ways he still is), Takakeisho's pounding on the metal grating post bout made little sense.  All I can come up with it that he was getting on his own case wondering why he didn't fight that way earlier in the tournament...  But he should have been happy that he dispatched a tournament contender, and ... didn't suffer another humiliating ginboshi loss.

Watching his bout (it was a very touch-and-go affair) I suspect he was frustrated that he had to wing it. Kotonowaka got the better of him at the tachiai, after all, and had control of the first two exchanges before being too forward about the third and falling for an inashi-tsukiotoshi combo. Takakeishō is one of the rikishi for whom it wouldn't be out of character to be hard on himself even in victory, but even so banging on the walls is still surprisingly uncharacteristic for rikishi in general.

Edited by Seiyashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Seiyashi said:

Watching his bout (it was a very touch-and-go affair) I suspect he was frustrated that he had to wing it. Takakeishō is one of the rikishi for whom it wouldn't be out of character to be hard on himself even in victory, but even so banging on the walls is still surprisingly uncharacteristic for rikishi in general.

What I saw was a return to his deadliest weapon, the tsukiotoshi (a.k.a. left hand side swipe), something he used to great effect in his rise to Ozeki status.  

Seeing it today was a chilling yet welcome sight.  The bout only lasted 3.6s, which I call "taking care of business".

But cleary, claims that Takakeisho is a master at resetting after losses fail to see that the pressure does indeed get to our friend, the Battle Hamster.  And this was a win!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Amamaniac said:
17 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Watching his bout (it was a very touch-and-go affair) I suspect he was frustrated that he had to wing it. Takakeishō is one of the rikishi for whom it wouldn't be out of character to be hard on himself even in victory, but even so banging on the walls is still surprisingly uncharacteristic for rikishi in general.

What I saw was a return to his deadliest weapon, the tsukiotoshi (a.k.a. left hand side swipe), something he used to great effect in his rise to Ozeki status.  

Seeing it today was a chilling yet welcome sight.  The bout only lasted 3.6s, which I call "taking care of business".

But cleary, claims that Takakeisho is a master at resetting after losses fail to see that the pressure does indeed get to our friend, the Battle Hamster.  And this was a win!?

As much as inashi and tsukiotoshi are Takakeishō trademarks, it is less forward sumō than perhaps he would like himself to have put on as an ōzeki. There might be something in the pundits who suspected that he was harbouring an injury because of the lack of power of his usual tsuki-oshi attacks, but then that doesn't appear to me to be consonant with that display in the hanamichi: if he was in fact injured and he knows it, he would have counted himself lucky to get that crucial 8th win even when on the back foot and without one of his usual weapons, rather than appear to berate himself over being slower at the tachiai and getting handled by an upstart. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:
54 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Watching his bout (it was a very touch-and-go affair) I suspect he was frustrated that he had to wing it. Takakeishō is one of the rikishi for whom it wouldn't be out of character to be hard on himself even in victory, but even so banging on the walls is still surprisingly uncharacteristic for rikishi in general.

What I saw was a return to his deadliest weapon, the tsukiotoshi (a.k.a. left hand side swipe), something he used to great effect in his rise to Ozeki status.  

Seeing it today was a chilling yet welcome sight.  The bout only lasted 3.6s, which I call "taking care of business".

But cleary, claims that Takakeisho is a master at resetting after losses fail to see that the pressure does indeed get to our friend, the Battle Hamster.  And this was a win!?

As much as inashi and tsukiotoshi are Takakeishō trademarks, it is less forward sumō than perhaps he would like himself to have put on as an ōzeki. There might be something in the pundits who suspected that he was harbouring an injury because of the lack of power of his usual tsuki-oshi attacks, but then that doesn't appear to me to be consonant with that display in the hanamichi: if he was in fact injured and he knows it, he would have counted himself lucky to get that crucial 8th win even when on the back foot and without one of his usual weapons, rather than appear to berate himself over being slower at the tachiai and getting handled by an upstart. 

Just finished watching Kinta-san's digest (thank you Golden Balls ;-)), and Ross Mihara comments right after the bout that Takakeisho "looked mad at that move by Kotonowaka".  Not exactly sure what "that move" was, but Kotonowaka was definitely thrusting repeatedly into Takakeisho's face.  Ozeki (especially Yokozuna) expect a certain level of respect from their lower-ranked opponents.  Still, nothing to pound the furniture about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yarimotsu said:

You seem to know where ginboshi records are kept, and I think I heard of such a place but it's slipped my mind. Care to remind me?

There was a Japanese source that maintained a list which seems to have disappeared a long time ago. I Maintain my own list of all Makuuchi kinboshi, ginboshi, fusen and hansoku results since start of Heisei plus historical Top 10 kinboshi/ginboshi awarded/conceded. I posted an update to my webpage after each basho for many years but then my internet provider changed its terms of service and stopped hosting free webpages and my site also disappeared.

i don't know of a current online English source for ginboshi other than the fabulous SumoDB search feature. As Seiyashi notes above, match Maegashira wins against Ozeki loss (also filter out fusen and hansoku results which don't count).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yarimotsu said:

No, no, Shodai has been in black all basho!

After the first four days, I would never have expected Shodai to be standing 6-5 after day 11.  

Still touch and go for him to get eight wins though.

Swami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

Quick poll: what are the odds of a Takayasu championship at this point in the tournament?

I would make him a 2-1 favorite. While the loss to Wakatakakage doesn't help it still leaves him in the driver seat as far as the leaders. While Mitakeumi has beat Takayasu their 2 recent meetings he was either in the middle of or just recovering from an injury bad enough to cause him to pull out of 2 basho. Prior to that Takayasu completely dominated him and that stayed true even after Takayasu dropped from Ozeki. While Shodai and Takakeisho have better records against Takayasu he can beat them and neither are looking particularly genki this basho.  If Takayasu has to face all 3 Ozeki, something I don't think is right BTW, facing Mitakeumi first was the best thing for him despite Mitakeumi's record this basho.  While Mitakeumi is only one off the pace he does not look in as good as his form when he won yushos IMO. I do not think he beats Takayasu AND Wakatakakage but he certainly can and if he does he deserves the yusho.  

I don't think you can say the same for Wakatakakage. He has clearly been very intense the last couple bouts and it worked well but it will work against him when facing the Ozeki. Even when doing poorly Ozeki know how to take advantage of a guy pushing too hard. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I clearly use clearly too much. Gotta stop that. 

Also while while I'm at it. 

Edited by Rocks
  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

You seem to know where ginboshi records are kept, and I think I heard of such a place but it's slipped my mind. Care to remind me?

Is there really such a thing as a "ginboshi"?

I may be completely wrong here, but in my history of watching sumo on NHK and Sumo Digest and other Japanese TV I don't think I ever heard anyone talk about "ginboshi". Is it just a thing that gaijin sumo-fans have come up with?

Not intending to be antagonistic here, just curious. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

Just finished watching Kinta-san's digest (thank you Golden Balls ;-)), and Ross Mihara comments right after the bout that Takakeisho "looked mad at that move by Kotonowaka".  Not exactly sure what "that move" was, but Kotonowaka was definitely thrusting repeatedly into Takakeisho's face.  Ozeki (especially Yokozuna) expect a certain level of respect from their lower-ranked opponents.  Still, nothing to pound the furniture about.

I think "that move" referred to Kotonowaka's sidestep at the tachiai. At least that's how I understood it. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kumoryu said:

Is there really such a thing as a "ginboshi"?

I may be completely wrong here, but in my history of watching sumo on NHK and Sumo Digest and other Japanese TV I don't think I ever heard anyone talk about "ginboshi". Is it just a thing that gaijin sumo-fans have come up with?

Not intending to be antagonistic here, just curious. 

It's definitely talked about in Japanese fan circles as well, but it's an entirely unofficial statistic. I imagine that if the NSK acknowledged it they'd feel obligated to hand out prizes.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kumoryu said:

Is there really such a thing as a "ginboshi"?

I may be completely wrong here, but in my history of watching sumo on NHK and Sumo Digest and other Japanese TV I don't think I ever heard anyone talk about "ginboshi". Is it just a thing that gaijin sumo-fans have come up with?

Not intending to be antagonistic here, just curious. 

If nothing else, the JP Wikipedia does talk about it in the introduction to kinboshi, although it doesn't occupy a full section like the EN article on kinboshi does. I think it's more a thing from pundits and sports papers, who can be worse than us in keeping track of records and trivia, so I wouldn't be surprised if it in fact originated there.

https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/sumo/news/p-sp-tp3-20141115-1396467.html

So in 2014, Nikkan ran an article on Aminishiki's defeat of Goeido, and used the term. So it's definitely not just a gaijin thing, at least by 2014.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

To me it's not clear what Takakeisho was feeling there. It could've been frustration, but it also looked a bit like a pumped up fist bump - maybe for getting his KK with a win over a good opponent.

Incidentally, Kotonowaka feels much younger than Takakeisho to me for some reason, but they're only a year apart and were teammates in high school.

Edited by Katooshu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

If nothing else, the JP Wikipedia does talk about it in the introduction to kinboshi, although it doesn't occupy a full section like the EN article on kinboshi does. I think it's more a thing from pundits and sports papers, who can be worse than us in keeping track of records and trivia, so I wouldn't be surprised if it in fact originated there.

https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/sumo/news/p-sp-tp3-20141115-1396467.html

So in 2014, Nikkan ran an article on Aminishiki's defeat of Goeido, and used the term. So it's definitely not just a gaijin thing, at least by 2014.

The NSK lists the term ginboshi in the Ozumo daijiten, saying just that, a term used by news media - with no influence on rikishi income. Wikipedia.jp usually gets such info from the daijiten.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

As much as inashi and tsukiotoshi are Takakeishō trademarks, it is less forward sumō than perhaps he would like himself to have put on as an ōzeki. There might be something in the pundits who suspected that he was harbouring an injury because of the lack of power of his usual tsuki-oshi attacks, but then that doesn't appear to me to be consonant with that display in the hanamichi: if he was in fact injured and he knows it, he would have counted himself lucky to get that crucial 8th win even when on the back foot and without one of his usual weapons, rather than appear to berate himself over being slower at the tachiai and getting handled by an upstart. 

I would agree. To me Takakeisho is frustrated, with himself. I don't think he is very happy Kotonowaka was able to move him so far and so easily with just a slap. It looks like a sidestep but really most of it is Takakeisho being pushed aside, easily.  I think Kotonowaka's frustration is he never expected that to work so well. Had he kept his head and slapped Takakeisho down  while off balance he would have won and even quicker.  Instead  he charges trying to press his advantage and push Takakeisho out but  putting himself off balance, Takaeishio takes advantage of that and slaps him down. 

I doubt Takakeisho can be very happy with the thought these up and comers can just push him  AND move him.  He shouldn't need luck or a mistake to beat a guy like Kotonowaka so soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The NSK lists the term ginboshi in the Ozumo daijiten, saying just that, a term used by news media - with no influence on rikishi income. Wikipedia.jp usually gets such info from the daijiten.

Any link to the daijiten (I assume it means/is written with the kanji for large dictionary)? The basic glossary on the NSK site doesn't seem to list it, or maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Any link to the daijiten (I assume it means/is written with the kanji for large dictionary)? The basic glossary on the NSK site doesn't seem to list it, or maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.

I use the book, I doubt that anybody dared to put a copy/scan of it on the net.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

I use the book, I doubt that anybody dared to put a copy/scan of it on the net.

Something to look for if/when I can go back to the Kokugikan, then... Or pay a visit to a local Kino.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now