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Nokotta

Hatsu 2022 - Day 11: Wardrobe malfunction?

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That is indeed eye-opening. Your research also potentially upends the Wikipedia statement about wrestlers originally wrestling in their kesho-mawashi and the wrestling mawashi being a later innovation. That being said, the wrestlers depicted might have been lower rankers so it's not conclusive, but it certainly challenges the "common knowledge" about the evolution of the shimekomi.

I would also like to propose to the mods that either this whole thread or the second half of it containing Hankegami's research be shifted into the Sumo Information Pond, as it's salient and deserves a better home than being drowned under basho threads.

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48 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

That is indeed eye-opening. Your research also potentially upends the Wikipedia statement about wrestlers originally wrestling in their kesho-mawashi and the wrestling mawashi being a later innovation. That being said, the wrestlers depicted might have been lower rankers so it's not conclusive, but it certainly challenges the "common knowledge" about the evolution of the shimekomi.

I wonder how much "common knowledge" might suffer from excessive reliability on outdated sources. Popular publications, not only in sumo history but basically in all fields, use too many old monographies as their sources. Well, I'm guilty here as I used a 1979 monography myself as my source, but statuettes and prints dated back to the actual event "do not lie" at least. However, I am thinking especially of well-known blunders like the terrible mix-up of Unryu and Shiranui styles. That was not even outdated research per se, but plain bad research. Possibly some bladantly uncorrect "common knowledge" things may stem from outdated, badly researched monographies.

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7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

I can guess who the two spikes in weight are (the two American yokozuna

Specifically, Polynesian.  Americans are getting (on average) too fat, but there's genetics involved in being able to hold weight and strength simultaneously.

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It's not right that @Kintamayama hasn't commented in this topic.

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On 19/01/2022 at 19:36, Seiyashi said:

As much as it might have been unpleasant or titillating, depending on which side you swing, rikishi exposure was never really historically a big problem until relatively recently in sumo's history.

Blasted Christian missionaries, I tell you, the prime directive just never occurred to them, of course. Onsens used to be mixed gender, as well. OK, I'm waxing nostalgic.

I'm glad to not rewind the Day 11 video, though. The warning is much appreciated.

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1 hour ago, Rocks said:

It's not right that @Kintamayama hasn't commented in this topic.

I don't comment on serious stuff beyond my scope of comprehension. I just look at it in awe - nothing to joke about. This is really interesting. I can only sit back and enjoy and try to absorb.

Edited by Kintamayama
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1 hour ago, Rocks said:

It's not right that @Kintamayama hasn't commented in this topic.

Why, because of the nutty content (not golden though)? :-P

Amazing how this thread has evolved :-D

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12 hours ago, Hankegami said:

 

I'm not that sure. Contemporary Ukiyo-e clearly depict 18th-19th century sumo wrestlers as very rotund men (see my avatar). Although they probably just painted a "standard rikishi" type rather than the actual guy, it still means that was the average rikishi body in the collective imagination.

I'm not saying that rikishi didn't become fatter throughout the 20th century. They did. My point is that 18th-19th century rikishi were still big belly guys. The photos portraying Shiranui Koemon clearly show his prominent belly, although I agree it appears that the diet and workout standards of the time favoured the formation of belly fat while leaving the arms relatively skinny (see Abi and Ichiyamamoto nowadays).

I made a couple of line charts to better show the situation (see attachments). The first shows the BMI (Body Mass Index) of all Yokozuna from Tanikaze to Terunofuji. Although one could object that early data might be not completely realiable, the pattern still shows that every Yokozuna was at least within the Obesity I range and most were in Obesity II-III, that is grave obesity. Of course, we must include muscles and all, but there has always been an undeniable tendency to be as fat as possible in documented sumo history.

The second shows the absolute weight of each Yokozuna. Long story short, no one made it below 100 kg. The lightest was Tochigiyama Moriya (the 27th Yokozuna, 1918-1925) with 104 kg for a height of 1,72 m (BM I 35,15, Obesity II). The second lightest was Umegatani Toutarou I (the 15th Yokozuna, 1884-1885) with 105 kg for a height of 1,76 m (BMI 33,89, Obesity I). And most of their contemporary Yokozunas were 130 kg+.

 Back to the main topic, modern yotsu-zumo simply uses the mawashi for extra grip. IMHO overarm throws, neck pulls and leg grabs of all kinds are perfectly executable even against a naked opponent

BMI is stupid. It just sees the weight, but not if that weight is made of muscles or fat.  Yes, there are not few sumotori, who have too much fat, but for the most their body-fat is surprisingly lower than you would expect.

But when we are forced to talk about sumotori and their size, we should at least switch to Fluffy's six levels of fatness, to make it sound funnier:

- big

- healthy

- husky

- fluffy

- Damn!

- Aww, hell no!

Edited by Benihana

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