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Seiyashi

Hidenoumi and Shiden under suspicion of illegal gambling

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27 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

The kyujo was decided by their own oyakata so there will be a drop regardless of their true activities. I could only see rank reinstatement if kyujo was forced by nsk.

Is that mixed up with the idea that no smoke without fire - that the oyakata wouldn't have done so unless there was something really happening? If the oyakata was overzealous in taking his rikishi out it would still be equally unfair for them to eat a 0-0-15 for nothing.

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Is that mixed up with the idea that no smoke without fire - that the oyakata wouldn't have done so unless there was something really happening? If the oyakata was overzealous in taking his rikishi out it would still be equally unfair for them to eat a 0-0-15 for nothing.

I guess I’m not arguing that it’s pointing to something going on, what I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter. Since it’s in the oyakatas best interest to have high ranked sekitori, it only hurts them to sit sekitori for disciplinary reasons (of course there is some self preservation to try and avoid docked pay). So even in small cases that don’t have far reaching effect as multibeya illegal gambling, it’s the oyakatas prerogative and can’t really be challenged in my view. Simply, fairness is not part of the equation for these types of kyujo.

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Posted (edited)

Local police from Saitama where the gambling took place are looking into this carefully, said an article. The police are trying to establish what brought about their being there, if they were there at all. The place was under surveillance after rumor had it that some rikishi and others were seen frequenting the illegal gambling den. No new facts revealed, just that more investigations were held today.

Edited by Kintamayama
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The punishment will be announced on January 27th at the regular rijikai, it was learned today. They have confessed to the gambling, say people close to the investigation.

Edited by Kintamayama
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Pro tip: If a press person comes up and tells you that there's a 50-50 chance you'll be expelled, don't say "Hey, I'd like to get a piece of that action!"

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They owned up for a change, unlike their predecessors who denied. And I wonder if the punishment would be lighter. Like with Kotomitsuki..

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I would like to think that the punishment will be proportionate with the kind of gambling they did. I'm not aware of any details having leaked out, but there is a huge difference in my mind between Pachinko and Mahjong Vs betting on Sports or worse yet Sumo. If they bet on Sumo, then expulsion is the likely outcome, just small amounts on games then maybe a fine and short suspension, on Sports or large amounts then everything is on the table.

Last time I was in Japan Pachinko and Mahjong parlors were everywhere. I learned to play Mahjong and Shogi in a back ally parlor in a part of Yokohama I was technically not allowed to be in. Frankly if this is what they got in trouble for, the NSK should have just laughed it off and told them to be more discrete.

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Playing the conspiracy game here, but can the NSK be delaying the dismissal of the 2 for after the next bansuke is made so they don't get the risk of the other current suspended rikishi (Asanoyama) stays in Juryu one more basho? Based on historic records, Asanoyama would drop to around ms5. With Hide and Shiden leaving, Chiyonoo 0-15 plus the big probability of Shohozan or any of the other old rikishi retiring, they might not have enough makushita to promote and need to keep Asa in the paid ranks.

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7 hours ago, Asapedroryu said:

Playing the conspiracy game here, but can the NSK be delaying the dismissal of the 2 for after the next bansuke is made so they don't get the risk of the other current suspended rikishi (Asanoyama) stays in Juryu one more basho? Based on historic records, Asanoyama would drop to around ms5. With Hide and Shiden leaving, Chiyonoo 0-15 plus the big probability of Shohozan or any of the other old rikishi retiring, they might not have enough makushita to promote and need to keep Asa in the paid ranks.

More likely they've just decided this isn't big enough to bother convening a rush meeting for (unlike the Asanoyama incident) and have just shoved it into the next meeting that comes along. It does support the possibility that the two will be let off relatively lightly.

7 hours ago, Morningstar said:

I would like to think that the punishment will be proportionate with the kind of gambling they did.

To play devil's advocate, first, we don't know what gambling they actually did, and second, after 2011, the NSK could equally maintain that it is known that rikishi shouldn't gamble. A commenter on Herouth's Twitter has gone as far as to point out that all rikishi ought to be considered "under probation" as far as gambling is concerned. I would agree if they did anything close to gambling on sumo they ought to be expelled, but I'm not sure that "light" gambling is a distinction at all.

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15 hours ago, Morningstar said:

I would like to think that the punishment will be proportionate with the kind of gambling they did. I'm not aware of any details having leaked out, but there is a huge difference in my mind between Pachinko and Mahjong Vs betting on Sports or worse yet Sumo. If they bet on Sumo, then expulsion is the likely outcome, just small amounts on games then maybe a fine and short suspension, on Sports or large amounts then everything is on the table.

 

Baccarat and others. It's an "illegal gambling joint", not a pachinko parlor. The minute the police are involved, the Kyokai has no say. They need to show muscle. Three basho suspension. And as for the "owning up and telling the truth for a lighter sentence", I was joking.

Edited by Kintamayama

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16 hours ago, Morningstar said:

I would like to think that the punishment will be proportionate with the kind of gambling they did. I'm not aware of any details having leaked out, but there is a huge difference in my mind between Pachinko and Mahjong Vs betting on Sports or worse yet Sumo. If they bet on Sumo, then expulsion is the likely outcome, just small amounts on games then maybe a fine and short suspension, on Sports or large amounts then everything is on the table.

I just wanna point out a lot (all?) illegal gambling parlors, even if they have fairly mundane games like Mahjong or 3 card, are run by some Yakuza-gumi or Zainichi gang. Which means that maybe you can take a loan from them to continue gambling. And being in debt to them may compromise your approach to sumo...

This is really about trying to create separation between sumo and organized crime, rather than a gambling is bad mindset. There is a reason the NSK website has a whole page dedicated to explaining their methods to achieve this separation.

Edited by Tsuchinoninjin
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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

And as for the "owning up and telling the truth for a lighter sentence", I was joking.

You said like Kotomitsuki, the ozeki fired, the irony was obvious

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15 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

You said like Kotomitsuki, the ozeki fired, the irony was obvious

Of course, but on second thought I wasn't sure if many of our current members know the story.

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I thought he did get a lighter sentence - they let him keep his severance pay. 

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One basho suspension for Hidenoumi, nothing for Shiden. Hidenoumi drops to Juryo and will miss the next basho, Shiden back to Makushita, no further punishment. They went to the joint a few times, bet on small amounts and it did not happen during the time when rikishi were not allowed to go out. At the time, Shiden was Hidenoumi's tsukebito and was not a sekitori. The police will not be prosecuting..

 

EDIT: Not official yet. Should be official on the 27th.Edit- OFFICIAL.

Edited by Kintamayama
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14 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

One basho suspension for Hidenoumi, nothing for Shiden. Hidenoumi drops to Juryo and will miss the next basho, Shiden back to Makushita, no further punishment. they went to the joint a few times, bet on small amounts and it did not happen during the time when rikishi were not allowed to go out. At the time, Shiden was Hidenoumi's tsukebito and was not a sekitori. The police will not be prosecuting..

Surprisingly reasonable.

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For clarity, these appear to be the penalties suggested by the Kyokai's compliance committee in a report that was submitted to the board of directors today. The board will still only decide officially on Thursday and may deviate from these suggestions, although it sounds very likely that they'll sign off on them as-is.

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Just now, Asashosakari said:

For clarity, these appear to be the penalties suggested by the Kyokai's compliance committee in a report that was submitted to the board of directors today. The board will still only decide officially on Thursday and may deviate from these suggestions, although it sounds very likely that they'll sign off on them as-is.

Reading between the lines, and going by the past, the Kyokai always accepts the compliance guys' decision as is, We shall see.. 

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I'm glad it didn't end their careers, but not brimming with confidence that Shiden will make it back to juryo given how hard it was for him to get there in the first place. If he doesn't return, his sekitorihood would have to be the least impressive there's been. At least poor Oki actually made it to the dohyo as a sekitori.

Edited by Katooshu

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

One basho suspension for Hidenoumi, nothing for Shiden. Hidenoumi drops to Juryo and will miss the next basho.

Moti-san, You mentioned Hidenoumi dropping to Juryo. Is this after going 0-15 in the next basho while still in Makuuchi?

He wouldn't (normally) drop to Juryo from the current banzuke with a 0-15 at Maegashira 8, or is this the punishment? 

It's looking like I'm going to be dead last in GTB again. (Laughing...)

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10 hours ago, Kujo said:

He wouldn't (normally) drop to Juryo from the current banzuke with a 0-15 at Maegashira 8, or is this the punishment?

He most definitely would, and he will. The punishment is next tournament, but he sat out Hatsu by his oyakata's call, so he will be demoted to around J5 for Haru, then around ms5 for Natsu,  where he will come back and try to regain sekitorihood for Nagoya. Back to makuuchi for Aki at the soonest, probably around Kyushu.

Edited by Nantonoyama
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6 hours ago, Kujo said:

He wouldn't (normally) drop to Juryo from the current banzuke with a 0-15 at Maegashira 8

(Eh?)

Which parallel universe are you talking about?

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