Hakuho retires

[Kintamayama 44,354]

When an intai is announced in the three days between the end of a basho and the banzuke making, it is customary that that rikishi's name will not be on the next banzuke. which means Hakuhou will not be on the next banzuke. Just translating. Anyone?

The intai will be officially recognized on September 30th at the regular rijikai.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Onibushou 61]

Its crazy to think back to the far off time of Nov. 2010, when I first started watching sumo real-time. Asa had recently left, and Hakuho was already a Yokozuna with several titles. More than a decade after that point in his already great career, its finally come to pass. Even though it has been expected for a while now, its an odd feeling. Curious to see what a couple billion Yen and a goat for a coach can get you though.

By my count, this leaves just 6 sekitori from that banzuke (Takayasu, Tochinoshin, Kaisei, Sadanoumi, Takafuji and with impressive levels of doing just enough, the 36 year old Okinoumi).

[Katsunorifuji 65]

I’ll admit I was never a big fan of Hakuho, similar to how I didn’t like the late 1990’s New York Yankees. One person dominating was a great news story and good for the record books, but when it’s almost a forgone conclusion who is going to win each basho it’s easy to lose interest for a fan looking for excitement.

But you can’t fault a man for being great at what he does and no one did sumo the way Hakuho did. The sport will miss him and in a way so will I.

As to the idea that his records will stand the test of time, one can make the case that with a Yokozuna whose near the end of his career and the inconsistent Ozeki we have now that the time is ripe for someone young and promising to rise through the ranks start a new era of super dominance. But hopefully not too dominant, it’s kind of fun knowing a guy like Tokushoryu could hold up the trophy again. 

[specialweek 2 136]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Magaki, coming from sources inside the Kyokai now. Steak.

What does this mean?

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Now with the banzuke apparently done and only 3 juryo promotions announced, time to tackle the elephant in the room: Why the distinction in the way things are being done here?

Most of the time, rikishi will just announce their retirement, have a press conference, the NSK puts up a tweet announcing their oyakata name if applicable, and they're out of the next banzuke. However, Hakuho's announcement - or rather leak corroborated by the NSK - of intent to retire, means that there's nothing official thus far, and it seems that he is therefore included in the next banzuke (potentially shutting out a 4th juryo promotion). Is the holdup on the NSK side because they're deliberating whether to accept his retirement/approve his assumption of Magaki? And if so, why is that taking so long in his case?

[rhyen 1,809]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Now with the banzuke apparently done and only 3 juryo promotions announced, time to tackle the elephant in the room: Why the distinction in the way things are being done here?

Most of the time, rikishi will just announce their retirement, have a press conference, the NSK puts up a tweet announcing their oyakata name if applicable, and they're out of the next banzuke. However, Hakuho's announcement - or rather leak corroborated by the NSK - of intent to retire, means that there's nothing official thus far, and it seems that he is therefore included in the next banzuke (potentially shutting out a 4th juryo promotion). Is the holdup on the NSK side because they're deliberating whether to accept his retirement/approve his assumption of Magaki? And if so, why is that taking so long in his case?

Trying to get him to buy the ichidai toshiyori kabu instead of just giving it to him?

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Now with the banzuke apparently done and only 3 juryo promotions announced, time to tackle the elephant in the room: Why the distinction in the way things are being done here?

Most of the time, rikishi will just announce their retirement, have a press conference, the NSK puts up a tweet announcing their oyakata name if applicable, and they're out of the next banzuke. However, Hakuho's announcement - or rather leak corroborated by the NSK - of intent to retire, means that there's nothing official thus far, and it seems that he is therefore included in the next banzuke (potentially shutting out a 4th juryo promotion). Is the holdup on the NSK side because they're deliberating whether to accept his retirement/approve his assumption of Magaki? And if so, why is that taking so long in his case?

My theories from the promotions thread:

- Hakuho's retirement bonus is going to be beyond anything that they have paid out in the history of the organization
- To compensate, they reduce the amount of sekitori salaries they pay temporarily

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

8 hours ago, Mattjila said:

This even made the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/28/hakuho-sumo-wrestler-retire-japan-sports/

"[Terunofuji's] knees taped up so tightly it looked like he had a cast on each leg."

Yeah, right.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

The more I think about it, the fishier it gets. To be fair to the NSK, most of the time they're the ones to break the news of a retirement along with the toshiyori assumption, so we don't know how long they actually take to decide - this could be business as usual, with Hakuho just having submitted it later than usual (we don't know when the papers are actually physically handed in - it could be anytime during the basho itself for prior retirees, for example, even though the press conference usually happens after the basho in recent times).

So how did everyone get wind of Hakuho having submitted his papers, with Shibatayama put in the position of having to confirm it rather than announce it? Did Hakuho deliberately leak it in advance? And if so, to what end?

Edited September 29, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The more I think about it, the fishier it gets. To be fair to the NSK, most of the time they're the ones to break the news of a retirement along with the toshiyori assumption. So how did everyone get wind of Hakuho having submitted his papers, with Shibatayama put in the position of having to confirm it rather than announce it? Did Hakuho deliberately leak it in advance? And if so, to what end?

I suspect that the NSK are absolutely fizzing furious about the way the news was leaked. They may be looking for a way to deliver a final snub to the great one.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

20 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

My theories from the promotions thread:

- Hakuho's retirement bonus is going to be beyond anything that they have paid out in the history of the organization
- To compensate, they reduce the amount of sekitori salaries they pay temporarily

That’s like Evergrande taking away the office coffee machine to help its debt crisis.

Losing one salary for a couple of months will barely make a debt in Hakuho’s retirement payout, and I’d like to think they’ve planned for his retirement for years. It’s not as if was a surprise.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi 4,071]

3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

That’s like Evergrande taking away the coffee machine to help its debt crisis.

Losing one salary for a couple of months will barely make a debt in Hakuho’s retirement payout, and I’d like to think they’ve planned for his retirement for years. It’s not as if was a surprise.

If they do indeed have difficulty (which in and of itself is not implausible given pandemic effects), more likely than not his payout will be in instalments. It's not as if he's hurting for ready cash either - or at least I would be very surprised if he was. I think @Tigerboy1966 is a bit closer to the truth, and part of the delay is hand-wringing over whether or not to let a snook go unpunished, if indeed there has been a snook cocked.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Seiyashi

[themistyseas 226]

35 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

So how did everyone get wind of Hakuho having submitted his papers, with Shibatayama put in the position of having to confirm it rather than announce it? Did Hakuho deliberately leak it in advance? And if so, to what end?

30 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I suspect that the NSK are absolutely fizzing furious about the way the news was leaked. They may be looking for a way to deliver a final snub to the great one.

Just my imagination, but we all know Hakuho doesn't forget. Most folks tend to agree that Shibatayama's statements to the press about Hakuho's Olympic appearance were way over the top (even if not technically all wrong) and even if there was a discussion to be had about how it came to be, it certainly didn't appear that he had any of those answers. Even though it's Shibatayama's job as PR man to answer the press questions and he had no choice but to do so, he certainly could have handled it a lot better and managed not to lose face (especially as PR man for an organisation that continues to have to suspend rikishi for lying about running out to the kyabakura). A lot of Shibatayama's outburst hinged on the fact that Hakuho shouldn't be doing this that or the other in his capacity as top man on the banzuke. Now, we know Hakuho didn't even want to be on the banzuke. I'm no rikishi but if I were in Hakuho's shoes, and it wasn't clear that they were ready to handle this, I wouldn't be in the mood to make Shibatayama's life easy.

More plausibly though, the other benefit to leaking it is that if you're concerned about the media narrative, you can allow that story to circulate with less influence from the various official sources. I find the comments from Yano, for example, that were shared here to be pretty detestable. And given that there's actually been quite a bit of global pickup on this, if he has leaked it then it shows that he's not willing to be strongarmed by the association to wait for them if that's been his intention since before the Olympics and he's given them multiple months' notice to prepare. And it also means that global media isn't going to be picking up comments that come later from people like Yano. But maybe I'm giving him too much credit for media strategy.

That's all a bit of gossipy conjecture based on nothing though... I do also tend to agree with @WAKATAKE's assessment that the financial side of this probably will take some time for them to work out. And we know from other recent intai that it sometimes takes them months to shuffle kabu around, sort out paperwork, etc. Even if they've decided not to grant ichidai-toshiyori, now they're going to have to announce why, there will have had to have been discussions about that and if they accept the policy recommendation to remove or if they simply aren't giving to him. Maybe those already happened...!

As @Kintamayama says... it's "game of fat thrones" ;)

Edited September 29, 2021 by themistyseas

[Akinomaki 39,797]

8 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Isn't there a rule that precludes a new man from doing a branchout for a set amount of time (a year?)

Exactly

On 17/01/2019 at 11:48, Akinomaki said:

The NSK had a rijikai yesterday and acknowledged that Kisenosato took on the toshiyori name Araiso. Kyokai rules demand that he stays 1 year as heya attached oyakata before he can become independent and open a heya - and he may do so already for the Olympics. Since nearly 1 year ago he is looking for premises - somewhere between Akihabara and Asakusabashi station is seen as likely - not many sumo-beya there, but the AKB48 headquarters - it may turn out to be called AKB=Akiba-beya.

For Kise the rijikai had only to acknowledge that name takeover, not the retirement as a whole, but he retired during the basho and had his intai press conference. Hakuho should have called a press conference with Miyagino and announced his intai, this way e.g. Zakzak calls it a mono-ii against his retirement that delays the intai announcement by the NSK. Shibatayama claims that there are a lot of committees and applications to make now - for Kise and Giku that was done in one day though.

The NSK is in trouble with getting the money for paying Hakuho the amounts that come with retirement, there is talk of a limit of 100 million yen for the special kouroukin part, the rijikai has to decide upon. Lately it isn't published anymore. Taka got 130, Asashoryu 120 million, both together have about the same number of yusho as Hakuho. The other sums are more or less fix or determined, the standard retirement money for a yokozuna, the money for continuous service as as yokozuna (the holes in the end won't reduce that),  and the remaining money from the kensho that Hakuho will get, which is seen as close to 400 million yen, no way to reduce that.

http://www.zakzak.co.jp/spo/news/210929/spn2109290002-n2.html

Edited September 29, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Bit ironic considering who I'm replying to, but Hakuho's payments are basically 10% of the loss that the NSK incurred as of their last financial report. Not that Hakuho's payments caused 10% of that loss, but in terms of magnitude it is 10% of the loss that the NSK made over the last year thanks to cancellations and all that. No word about their reserves, but... yeah. Not a fun payment to make, this.

[RabidJohn 1,665]

9 hours ago, Washuyama said:

I impressed...  A well written article about sumo in western press.  It doesn't happen often.

Apart from the line about Tobizaru, "who somewhat annoyingly brands himself 'The Flying Monkey'"...

A jarring bit of crashing ignorance in an otherwise well informed piece.

---

I have to agree that the way this long-expected news broke all over the media before any official intai announcement is unusual, to say the least. That the NSK has been dragging its collective heels because it can't afford to pay Hakuho off hadn't occurred to me before, but it fits with what we've seen of the organisation's lack of ability when dealing with unprecedented situations.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

21 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

9 hours ago, Washuyama said:

I impressed...  A well written article about sumo in western press.  It doesn't happen often.

Apart from the line about Tobizaru, "who somewhat annoyingly brands himself 'The Flying Monkey'"...

A jarring bit of crashing ignorance in an otherwise well informed piece.

I actually agreed with that line a bit more than I generally agreed with the rest of it, which, while well researched, went a bit too hard on the melodrama for my liking.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

One more reason for the delay I can think of - is it plausible that there is a rift in the board whether or not to give him the ichidai somehow after all?

[themistyseas 226]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

10 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Isn't there a rule that precludes a new man from doing a branchout for a set amount of time (a year?)

Exactly

Surely a branch-out was never really on the cards here anyway? I don't think it would have made sense for him to abscond with half (or more) of the heya when he can just carry on doing what he's been doing in terms of recruitment and development, given that Miyagino's on a very limited clock as it is anyhow. He'll end up getting control of his heya in less time than a branch-out would take.

I'm sure the plan was always for him to take over the existing heya next August regardless of his knee condition. Can't imagine the real estate venture would have much impact on that on way or the other, but perhaps he can acquire the land and get the whole thing done in time for the grand rebrand - whatever that brand will be.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Just now, themistyseas said:

Surely a branch-out was never really on the cards here anyway? I don't think it would have made sense for him to abscond with half (or more) of the heya when he can just carry on doing what he's been doing in terms of recruitment and development, given that Miyagino's on a very limited clock as it is anyhow. He'll end up getting control of his heya in less time than a branch-out would take.

I'm sure the plan was always for him to take over the existing heya next August regardless of his knee condition. Can't imagine the real estate venture would have much impact on that on way or the other, but perhaps he can acquire the land and get the whole thing done in time for the grand rebrand - whatever that brand will be.

It's only whether the heya would have been called Hakuho or Miyagino, anyway. Arguably Miyagino is fairly prestigious with at least three yokozuna associated with it in history, including Hakuho himself. I wouldn't put it past Hakuho to have a board with "Hakuho Dojo" made, though.

The question is whether Miyagino switches only at 65, or they'll swap more or less as soon as they can. Since he's taking over an existing heya, I don't think there are any limits or requirements on his doing so that wouldn't be academic.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

10 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

All, in all, a well-written piece.

From the article: "I have always found it hard to justify holding such strong feelings about sports figures. "  Written in a sports article.  If anything sums up the Washington Post, this is it.

You've not browsed through the Cultural War section of the WaPo lately, have you?

But you are right, the artcle is great.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

9 hours ago, specialweek 2 said:

What does this mean?

That it’s probably true.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Apart from the line about Tobizaru, "who somewhat annoyingly brands himself 'The Flying Monkey'"...

A jarring bit of crashing ignorance in an otherwise well informed piece.

---

 

What's not true in that statement? 

[Seiyashi 4,071]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

One more reason for the delay I can think of - is it plausible that there is a rift in the board whether or not to give him the ichidai somehow after all?

Turns out, it's worse: there was serious debate about whether or not to even let Hakuho become an oyakata:

https://www.sanspo.com/article/20210929-N63NCYKTAJNLJJ7PKP57NAO4JA/

Sanspo reports that the, well, I don't know how to translate this, but roughly the Toshiyori Qualification Inspection/Examination Committee, was not unanimous in deciding whether to approve Hakuho's assumption of the Magaki kabu. The Committee consists of 5 oyakata and one external committee member, and is apparently charged with evaluating and reporting to the board on the application of retired rikishi who wish to become oyakata. According to someone in attendance, the Committee was not unanimous in approving and recommending Hakuho's assumption of the Magaki kabu, because of his past misbehaviours. That same source was quoted as saying that the rijikai would make the final decision, but that it either was not outright declined, or it would not be rejected - not quite 100% on the nuance of that last sentence.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,248]

34 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Turns out, it's worse: there was serious debate about whether or not to even let Hakuho become an oyakata:

https://www.sanspo.com/article/20210929-N63NCYKTAJNLJJ7PKP57NAO4JA/

Sanspo reports that the, well, I don't know how to translate this, but roughly the Toshiyori Qualification Inspection/Examination Committee, was not unanimous in deciding whether to approve Hakuho's assumption of the Magaki kabu. The Committee consists of 5 oyakata and one external committee member, and is apparently charged with evaluating and reporting to the board on the application of retired rikishi who wish to become oyakata. According to someone in attendance, the Committee was not unanimous in approving and recommending Hakuho's assumption of the Magaki kabu, because of his past misbehaviours. That same source was quoted as saying that the rijikai would make the final decision, but that it either was not outright declined, or it would not be rejected - not quite 100% on the nuance of that last sentence.

I interpret the quote as 'It was not unanimous but, it (Hakuho assuming the Magaki name) isn't being rejected. Rijikai will decide. It (probably) won't be rejected'.

Because of the BUT (けど）after the not unanimous part, makes me think that when they say it won't be rejected, they are talking about about Hakuho assuming the Magaki name. I don't think you can interpret it as being not outright declined here.

Reading between the lines, it seems insinuated that the member making the trouble here is the external committee member.