Kaioshoryu

Hakuho retires

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16 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Looking at recent yusho percentages across a full career, the winner is Hakuho  Asashoryu at 41.8%.  Next is Hakuho Taiho at 39.1%.  Number 3 is Hakuho at 37.7%.  Others are Takanohana-26.7%, Chiyonofuji-25.6%, Wajima-25.0%, Futabayama-23.5% and Kitanoumi -22.0%.  Kakuryu-6.1% and Kisenosato-2.9% bring up the rear for the recent yokozunas.

Asashoryu can hardly be said to have had a full career, considering it was truncated for him. That said, he would have taken some yusho off Hakuho had he continued, so that would still have preserved their relative pecking orders, I think.

Counting only makuuchi yusho, I'm getting Taiho at 36.8 (32/87) and Hakuho (45/122) at 36.8. If we take off the last 8 basho (i.e. assuming he retired from his 10-3-2), he would be 38.5 (44/114). So it seems Hakuho draws at least even if not ahead of Taiho, and considering he had a 33% longer career and about 33% more yusho, maintaining percentage parity with Taiho is arguably more accomplished and Hakuho deserves to be in sole second.

Actually, now that I get round to calculating Asashoryu, he also only has 37.3% (25/67). So Hakuho really has one of the better strike rates in terms of yusho over basho, only marginally losing to Asashoryu, and arguably beating him once you apply a similar career truncation logic.

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49 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

He planned on announcing his retirement after Nagoya, but the Kyokai were all "why retire after a zensho, you still have it" etc

That was quite shocking to me when I read it. I thought that Yokozuna can decide to leave at any time they liked - and that Hakuho should have left after Nagoya. Turns out that it wasn't possible. Always wondered why Yokozunas don't often retire at the top, and well, I got my answer. 

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2 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

That was quite shocking to me when I read it. I thought that Yokozuna can decide to leave at any time they liked - and that Hakuho should have left after Nagoya. Turns out that it wasn't possible. Always wondered why Yokozunas don't often retire at the top, and well, I got my answer. 

I don't think the Kyokai forced him to continue. If he would have been adamant, he would have retired. 

Edited by Kintamayama
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2 minutes ago, Asojima said:

Full career, starting at MZ.

Yes, I realised right away but you’re too quick off the draw and quoted me before I deleted it. You must have had your finger on the trigger.

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Hakuho obtained the Magaki kabu, but the kyokai has yet to acknowledge that.

The kabu is said (by the tabloid Weekly Post) to be cursed. https://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20210925_1694118.html

It has a 300year history, but recently: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=43

the 16th Magaki founded Magaki-beya in 1959, had no good deshi and died age 53 of cirrhosis.

The 17th was attached to Wajima's Hanakago-beya, but went to become talento age 33, died at 59 of heart failure

The 18th was Wakanohana II. Set to become the successor of Futabayama-beya, he married the eldest daughter of Waka I, divorced her after a year and married a hostess from Ginza - and didn't have a kabu. He managed to get Magaki, had his heya end of 1983, with several sekitori, but suffered a cerebral hemorrhage in 2007 after his wife had died. In 2008 Russian Wakanho got thrown out for drugs and he got punished as well. In the open foreigner slot, Terunofuji could enter in 2010, as Wakamisho. In 2013 the heya had to close and the members moved to Isegahama.

Magaki became heya attached oyakata, but couldn't present his kabu certificate, when the NSK became public interest corporation and took over the control over the kabu. He had already sold it and now had to leave the NSK, five years before reaching the retirement age.

The 19th was Tokitenku, who died age 37 of leukemia.

The 20th was Gori-chan Tosayutaka, who escaped the curse by now being Tokitsukaze oyakata.

A curse like the shiranui curse maybe, should be no problem for Hakuho

Edited by Akinomaki
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2 hours ago, Swami said:

Hideously overrated and for all the anti-Kyokai bilge that appears, notably on Chris Gould's channel, he has been treated extremely leniently for treating the yokozuna rank like a public convenience.

Swami

Ooh, nice kachiage at the tachiai and dame-oshi after the bout  (Laughing...)

His numbers are big, but he hasn't always had the most competition at the top of the ranks (not his fault).

It's not like the oldzeki's, the ozeki back scratcher's club, and the current crop of sanyaku were all that much competition.

Only Asashoryu, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, and Terunofuji have given him real competition (and Toshinoshin when he was genki).

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I’m no fan of Hakuho’s, and I can’t see how his last yushō is very legitimate, coming off of a years-long run of showing up half of the time at best, but he’s certainly done a lot for the sport.

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13 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The article later tripled in length. The concluding part about Hakuho's future as oyakata now mentions the conference to check for kabu elegibility to be held after the basho and of course that the odds are low to get the ichidai toshiyori status.

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40 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Ooh, nice kachiage at the tachiai and dame-oshi after the bout  (Laughing...)

His numbers are big, but he hasn't always had the most competition at the top of the ranks (not his fault).

It's not like the oldzeki's, the ozeki back scratcher's club, and the current crop of sanyaku were all that much competition.

Only Asashoryu, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, and Terunofuji have given him real competition (and Toshinoshin when he was genki).

I think if you go back and watch footage from the first half of his Yokozuna period, you’ll find he had plenty of closely fought contests with the likes of Kotooshu, Baruto and Goeido (who beat him three times in a row once).

You also left out the pretty long list of guys who have perfect 1-0 records against him, including Takanoiwa and Arawashi who took kinboshi in their only ever meetings! 

Even Orora was unbeaten against the GOAT.

Edited by Eikokurai

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Lots of harsh opinions.

The basho that sparked my real interest in sumo (long after some first casual Eurosport stints) conicided with Hakuho's first yusho. What really hooked me though were the first glimpses of the rituals and decorum in the lizardmen stream and most of all Asashoryu.

Personally, I was turned down by Hakuho's lack of charisma. I do think, though, that regardless of his understandable role in political or simply convinience-driven situations ("epic" bouts with Asashoryu and Harumafuji; helping to make the Sad Three), he was certainly the strongest, most accomplished and consistent rikishi I have ever seen and probably will ever see. I submit that only his incredible superiority has shifted some people's focus to his interpretation of the Yokozuna role, something they would have ommitted, if only he would have lost a bit more.

That's the curse if you are so good. People get sick of you, and since you don't give them weakness in your core business, they will find the flaws elsewhere.

[I know what I'm talking about. I'm the best husband ever, but currently my wife hates my guts for whatever...]

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48 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

A curse like the shiranui curse maybe, should be no problem for Hakuho

I've been assuming that (if all goes well), he'll switch with Miyagino when the latter retires at 65.

Now I'm wondering if he'll see busting another 'curse' as a challenge and keep Magaki. 

---

I'm glad I came back to sumo in time to see Hakuho in action, even though it was after his truly dominant period. I acknowledge him as the GOAT while also seeing his undoubted flaws. I'm with ybf (above): he wouldn't be so divisive if he hadn't been so bloody good.

Yeah, it's the end of an era, but I'm not sad about it. I'm looking forward to the future, mainly in terms of what occurs on the dohyo, but also the what effect Hakuho has as an elder of the NSK.

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What will take me the most time getting used to is the lack of broken records from now on.vector-illustration-of-broken-vinyl-vect

Edited by Jakusotsu
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2 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

What will take me the most time getting used to is the lack of broken records from now on.

For such a pun you should be pun-ished.

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If we're talking about percentages, if Wikipedia is right, Hakuho ends with (of course) the highest ever win percentage: 84.6%. He's almost a full percentage point over Taiho (83.8%).

Although one time I checked the numbers and found it was counting fusensho wins/losses, which I think is dubious and probably shouldn't be done.

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15 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

I think it's safe to remove the question mark from the thread title. 

You never know, the NSK might reject his papers (Laughing...) "You've still won zensho, why retire?"

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Wow... It was coming eventually, yet it's still big news. Fare well, Phoenix. May your career as a coach and oyakata be as fruitful as it was on the dohyo. 

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Shibatayama revealed that Hakuho handed in the intai papers - via Miyagino-oyakata, the rijikai on Wednesday has to acknowledge - we can safely assume he'll not be on the Kyushu banzuke. In the near future the commission to decide on the toshiyori qualification will decide on his Magaki kabu acquisition. https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/sumo/20210927-OYT1T50137/

 

Edited by Akinomaki
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Terunofuji is now Japanese and yokozuna. Is there any possibility that Hakuho will give his Magaki to Terunofuji and Hakuho become Miyagino?

Edited by code_number3

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6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Not quite the same thing. Hakuho would have probably entered Aki Basho if it wasn't for the Heya-ban.

And Akebono would have entered in January 2001 if he hadn't been injured. He retired after that tournament. 

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19 minutes ago, code_number3 said:

Terunofuji is now Japanese and yokozuna. Is there any possibility that Hakuho will give his Magaki to Terunofuji and Hakuho become Miyagino?

Some goss was that Hakuho's Magaki acquisition was insurance not just for himself, but also for Terunofuji (at the request of Isegahama). If he had gotten his ichidai-toshiyori, Magaki was there for Terunofuji in case he had to retire early, because if he hadn't been promoted, he would only have had 3 years for jun-toshiyori as an ex-ozeki, which wouldn't have been enough time till Isegahama's handover to ex-Aminishiki. But now that Terunofuji is yokozuna and entitled to 5 years' jun-toshiyori, and since Isegahama is on the wrong side of 60, the stars align for Terunofuji to retire as Terunofuji-oyakata and take over Ajigawa when ex-Aminishiki takes over Isegahama. So that's completely moot; Terunofuji won't need Magaki after all.

Whether Magaki is available to be loaned out to ichimon rikishi who need one temporarily is a different matter altogether. Takarafuji and Kaisei are a little old for sekitori and might soon be in need of one, but ex-Koboyama's Takashima will become available almost together with Miyagino (+- a week), and either of the active rikishi mentioned can hang on for a year, surely.

More likely, Hakuho will become Magaki, then swap toshiyori with Miyagino whenever for ex-Chikubayama to become Magaki-oyakata as sanyo. His retirement now is actually pretty nice timing - the usual one year-ish to learn the ropes, then a swap in August next year when Miyagino hits 65.

The curveball now is if the board decides to grant the ichidai toshiyori after all, because they're not theoretically bound by the report. Then it's anyone's guess what happens to the Magaki stock.

Also, considering Hakuho has significant funds at his disposal, I wonder if he will relocate, or build a new stable.

Edited by Seiyashi
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5 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Kaisei

Does he have Japanese citizenship?

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1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

Does he have Japanese citizenship?

Answering myself: He does and has had for years.

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3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Does he have Japanese citizenship?

Wikipedia says he got it in Nov 2014 - JP wiki cites the government gazette. EN wiki further says that he wants to stay as oyakata, but doesn't provide a source.

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