Kaioshoryu

Hakuho retires

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52 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

He won't be the first or last to not be listed at Y1E in his retirement. When a subcommittee is considering attaching strings to his kabu assumption, whether he's Y1E or Y1W seems to be reading way too much into an insignficance.

Sure. Nothing to see here. Thus I totally qualified my last post.

But, when the greatest rikishi of all time retires, it would have been a proper half sentence at Wikipedia that would have mentioned that he did so from the very top and not the quasi very top.

It was definitely a memorable thing with e.g. Justine Henin (before ill conceived comebacks).

Edited by yorikiried by fate
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18 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Any conditions? There was this article suggesting some sort of restraint on his ability to own a heya or to penalise him for any gaffes: https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2021/09/30/0014720255.shtml

Nothing mentioned. The article is just a speculation, doesn't cite sources, and says that "there is a voice saying Hakuhou should not be able to open a heya for ten years", and "he needs a one-year cooling phase when he will be re-evaluated and if any problems arise, will not be allowed to inherit the heya" and other stuff like that. 

Edited by Kintamayama

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40 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

It was definitely a memorable thing with e.g. Justine Hardenne (before ill conceived comebacks).

Why "Hardenne"? At the time of retirement she wasn't married anymore and was back to Henin.

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2 minutes ago, Doitsuyama said:

Why "Hardenne"? At the time of retirement she wasn't married anymore and was back to Henin.

You are right of course. The wrong part of the double name popped up in my mind for some reason.

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6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

About the more casual/new type of international fans, based mainly on what I've observed on Reddit,  though I suspect it's little different on Twitter or Facebook: One thing that I've found fascinating (and also a bit puzzling) over the last few years is how, the less Hakuho actually showed up for tournaments, the more of a fan favourite he seemed to become. A lot of it appeared to be based on some sort of reflexive anti-authority stance, Hakuho apparently being seen as this guy who doesn't give a shit about what those in charge think, and who just shows up to compete as he pleases, just because he can. That seemed to appeal to a lot of people. Nevermind that the only reason he was even capable of doing it is that those in charge are specifically permitting it through the rules they've set, but the analysis never goes that far.

I recall getting some pushback here a few months ago when I said I would welcome those fans dropping out of sight again. It really doesn't matter what I think about that anyway, though, since it's inevitable that it's going to happen, just like it happened after Asashoryu's departure, or any other retirement of a rikishi whose support is a mile wide and an inch deep. (The dropoff of all dropoffs is going to be Tochinoshin fans, I suspect; now that's a shallow fandom. Takanoyama would have been another one, but the big boom in international fandom came too late for that.) The big "thing" right now is people proclaiming how very interested they are in following Hakuho's path as a stablemaster; I'm rather doubtful they're going to find it as exciting as they envision it at the moment.

I think it's more just an equivalent to the team sport idiom 'the less he plays the better he gets', when a high profile player is dropped for form or injury and fans moan about it.

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16 hours ago, Bombur said:

Wow, this even made the national French-speaking TV news in Belgium the day it was announced (but the actual segment wasn't very good, still calling the wrestlers "sumos" and tipping Hakuho at 250 kg lol).

I think at that point, even people who know absolutely nothing about sumo wrestling or even about sport will be calling bullshit on a man with his build being 250kg.

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https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2021/09/30/0014722244.shtml

This article states he's been given Magaki, but conditionally: however the terms of the conditions are pretty general and what you'd expect of any oyakata.
- "Obey the chairman and his sempai oyakata's orders and follow their guidance, and sincerely perform the duties assigned to him during honbasho"
- "Keep the traditions and culture of sumo, the spirit of the Way of Sumo, the association's principles, rules and manners, and the sumo world's customs and practices, and does not deviate from them in speech or conduct"

I mean, that's what oyakata should do anyway right? Either way, Hakuho had "no objections" to this and signed an agreement stating as much. It also states if he's judged to have violated these terms, he'll be in front of the toshiyori committee and they'll rule on if he's still fit to be an oyakata.

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Well, you don't hear of other oyakata being asked to sign an oath, do you? The fact that it had to be spelt out - indeed, that it being spelt out was reported - is significant.

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One a side note, one thing I absolutely will not miss is the fact that everybody always had an opinion on everything Hakuho related, no matter how trivial. He's gonna stay in sumo so I guess it's not gonna go away completely, but the amount that man's actions have been analyzed by absolutely everyone, whether in the Japanese media or by fans or in the foreign scene, is just tiresome to me.

And I know obviously he's been the most important wrestler for the past 10+ years and he certainly had his fair share of flaws and missteps worth discussing, but there's also been plenty of times where I've just felt like, "OK, I get it, can we not bring him up every time and talk about something else sumo related now?"

Hoping for a future where Hakuho's past missteps are forgiven and forgotten and he's now simply another sumo éminence grise who drops by the Kokugikan to do celebrity commentary.

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3 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Hoping for a future where Hakuho's past missteps are forgiven and forgotten and he's now simply another sumo éminence grise who drops by the Kokugikan to do celebrity commentary.

That's exactly what that sub committee didn't do, but anyway...

But you've mentioned one aspect of it hitherto unmentioned - I wonder what Magaki oyakata will be like as a technical commentator - will he be asked to do it next basho? Unfortunately I can't tell firsthand as my listening comprehension in Japanese is crap, but I'm sure it'll trickle in sooner or later.

Edited by Seiyashi
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9 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Well, you don't hear of other oyakata being asked to sign an oath, do you? The fact that it had to be spelt out - indeed, that it being spelt out was reported - is significant.

Indeed, the news is that he was made to sign an agreement at all, but also how vague the wording is.

As dada said above, everything Hakuho did and does is dissected to a huge extent and very polarising - many people thought him going to the judo was fine and great but others (including the NSK, who are the only people who matter really) weren't happy with it. It does feel like some people defend the (in the grand scheme of life) relatively minor things he does just because it's Hakuho, while people are also quick to cry foul for the same reason. I agree with some of the earlier posts in the thread that I'm kind of fed up of the really polarised coverage that follows literally every thing he does, and I hope he just becomes a regular, successful oyakata, in charge of a well-run stable. Enough of the drama.

Edited by Hidenotora
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35 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

That's exactly what that sub committee didn't do, but anyway...

But you've mentioned one aspect of it hitherto unmentioned - I wonder what Magaki oyakata will be like as a technical commentator - will he be asked to do it next basho? Unfortunately I can't tell firsthand as my listening comprehension in Japanese is crap, but I'm sure it'll trickle in sooner or later.

I think he'd be wise to avoid it, lest he 'deviate from principles of the association.... in speech or conduct'.

Hakuho Sho might have had the presence of a lion on the dohyo, but Magaki-Oyakata is going to have to be as meek as a mouse for a good long time. Otherwise, as Kintanayama has suggested, he will not last long.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

That's exactly what that sub committee didn't do, but anyway...

But you've mentioned one aspect of it hitherto unmentioned - I wonder what Magaki oyakata will be like as a technical commentator - will he be asked to do it next basho? Unfortunately I can't tell firsthand as my listening comprehension in Japanese is crap, but I'm sure it'll trickle in sooner or later.

I can't remember a time in recent memory when an Ozeki or Yokozuna (other than Harumafuji) didn't appear for a day on the broadcast the basho after they retired to look back on their career. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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Previous talk about his banzuke presence and rank reminds me how I’d said that if Takakeisho had failed to clear kadoban, Hakuho would have had to be a Yokozuna-Ozeki for the first time in his career. How novel it would have been to have a greyed-out Yokozuna-Ozeki slot on the banzuke.

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It's going to be weird seeing Hakuho guarding a door at the Kokugikan. I wish him luck and hope everything goes smoothly for him. Great Champion.

But I fear he will sit uneasily as Takanonhana.  I think he will find allies in surprising places though. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ex-Kisenosato support him strongly. 

Edited by Rocks
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46 minutes ago, Rocks said:

It's going to be weird seeing Hakuho guarding a door at the Kokugikan. I wish him luck and hope everything goes smoothly for him. Great Champion.

The task they give him will be very curious. It seems they don't put the most popular folks in areas of public interaction, for example Kisenosato caused a huge stir virtually every time I saw him go into Kokugikan (or any of the other spots) after his intai, to go to his commentary duties. Same could be said of Takanohana even up to his retirement - he always had a huge press scrum chasing after him. Apart from Kakuryu, Musashimaru is the only other "recent" (ie not in his final few years) Yokozuna in the Kyokai and I've never once seen him performing a task in any of the venues in the past several years.

You'd think they'd give Hakuho a similar role to Kisenosato, except they probably don't want him near a microphone.

I don't know what they're going to do with him (and I suspect they might not either). One might think they would give him a menial task to prove a point, but there are issues with that. You can't really put him at the merch booth with Tenkaiho and Satoyama, and he's not going to be a ticket taker like his senpai usually is, both for reasons of crowd control. The doorman/hanamichi patrol job is a very publicly accessible role in Fukuoka and Osaka, and those are two of the next three basho. 

Someone else might know this, but it seems like they very rarely make someone a shimpan early in their oyakata career. I guess they could throw him on the Jungyo team as they plan for its eventual return, that one seemed like a bit of a poisoned chalice at the best of times. I just have a feeling, especially with some of the noises we're hearing, that he won't be very visible.

Edited by themistyseas

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36 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

Someone else might know this, but it seems like they very rarely make someone a shimpan early in their oyakata career. I guess they could throw him on the Jungyo team as they plan for its eventual return, that one seemed like a bit of a poisoned chalice at the best of times. I just have a feeling, especially with some of the noises we're hearing, that he won't be very visible.

Chiyonofuji and Takanohana both served on the shimpanbu much earlier in their oyakata careers than would be usual. That might be the usual alternative for dai-yokozuna.

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This "signing of the oath" crap is crappy crap. It's appeasing the Kyokai loud minority. If I were Hakuhou, I'd fly off to Mongolia, cut my oicho on the plane and throw it down over the Sumida river, while prominently displaying my middle finger. The disrespect is so obvious even Stevie Wonder can see it. Hakuhou is finally  paying the price for breaking all those records. I'm convinced more than ever that he will not stick around much longer. They could have let him be for a few months without any stipulations . If he would have caused problems, that's when they should have commenced with them threats. I am fuming, foaming,  and will be thinking of my future in the virtual sumo world these coming days. Bad, bad, Kyokai.

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Hakuhou's intai interview- Tomorrow, October 1st, 3:00 PM JST. Live on the Kyokai's YouTube channel.

Edited by Kintamayama
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4 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Anyone know the angle of rotation Hakuho's hanko had for the oath signing?? (Laughing...)

Upside down

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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

I am fuming, foaming,  and will be thinking of my future in the virtual sumo world these coming days.

Don't do anything rash. You are always welcome in my corner of sumo enthusiasts who find pleasure from disgust.

Edited by yorikiried by fate

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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

This "signing of the oath" crap is crappy crap. It's appeasing the Kyokai loud minority. If I were Hakuhou, I'd fly off to Mongolia, cut my oicho on the plane and throw it down over the Sumida river, while prominently displaying my middle finger. The disrespect is so obvious even Stevie Wonder can see it. Hakuhou is finally  paying the price for breaking all those records. I'm convinced more than ever that he will not stick around much longer. They could have let him be for a few months without any stipulations . If he would have caused problems, that's when they should have commenced with them threats. I am fuming, foaming,  and will be thinking of my future in the virtual sumo world these coming days. Bad, bad, Kyokai.

From now on, the NSK should make every new oyakata to sign the same document, otherwise it's outrageous discrimination and disrespect to the GOAT of sumo. 

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Chiyonofuji and Takanohana both served on the shimpanbu much earlier in their oyakata careers than would be usual. That might be the usual alternative for dai-yokozuna.

Ditto for Taiho way back when, and even for the likes of Kaio and Chiyotaikai more recently. I think the main alternative for popular high-rankers is the job as a press club liaison, which was what Kotooshu was given and IIRC also Tochiazuma before him, but I'm not sure if that's currently relevant at all due to Covid interaction limits.

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