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Seiyashi

Most underrated/overlooked rikishi?

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4 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

This makes him overrated more than underrated. He entered sumo as a real prospect and has shown he can perform at the highest level when he wants. We could say what he’s done so far is under appreciated, but his skills have always been held in high regard.

I have to agree.  No one who comes into Ozumo at a rank with a "TD" after it should be considered underrated.

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This has been a good back-and-forth about who is the most underrated!

However, there can be only one winner in the overlooked competition: Shodai.

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15 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I have to agree.  No one who comes into Ozumo at a rank with a "TD" after it should be considered underrated.

In fact, it appears more of them wind up overrated than underrated - there's probably enough material here for a discussion of which TDs lived up to their expectations and which.... didn't.

 

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17 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

In fact, it appears more of them wind up overrated than underrated - there's probably enough material here for a discussion of which TDs lived up to their expectations and which.... didn't.

That Wajima guy did okay I guess.

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27 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

In fact, it appears more of them wind up overrated than underrated - there's probably enough material here for a discussion of which TDs lived up to their expectations and which.... didn't.

 

More seriously, here are lists I found that are a good starting point for that conversation:

https://sumowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/Makushita_Tsukedashi

https://sumowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/Sandanme_Tsukedashi

Edited by Eikokurai

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Just from my perspective, not in general, but Myogiryu. Not that he's done anything super amazing but I thought when he dropped to Juryo a few years ago that he was done, yet he's still around (and having a nice basho at the moment). I constantly forget he exists.

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1 hour ago, just_some_guy said:

Just from my perspective, not in general, but Myogiryu. Not that he's done anything super amazing but I thought when he dropped to Juryo a few years ago that he was done, yet he's still around (and having a nice basho at the moment). I constantly forget he exists.

For a quick moment after reading the topic title, I also thought Myogiryu. But he is more "overlooked" than underrated. When he turned up first, he was considered to be quite hot and potential Ozeki material IIRC, what with his TD status and such. Also, after his inital injury that set him back for a while, he came back and started to look like he was going to places. For many years now, he keeps delivering more often than not, but nobody really talks about him anymore. It's a bit similar to Okinoumi.

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Takakeisho, i remember a lot of people writting him off and claming Onosho to be the one when they came through as promising rikishi at Natsu 2017. 

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3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I have to agree.  No one who comes into Ozumo at a rank with a "TD" after it should be considered underrated.

I don't see why not. You can enter with a TD and still be better than most people believe you are. 

Edited by Katooshu

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1 minute ago, Katooshu said:

I don't see why not. You can enter with a TD and still be better than most people believe you are. 

(Sorry, out of likes).  I get your point, and maybe I should have qualified my statement with "Most Underrated";  but if you compare these guys to the Sumo universe it's hard to support an Underrated tag.  To procure one of these passes, you have to show you're clearly the best among your near age group in amateur Sumo.  Eventually you and your age cohort grow up, the older guys retire/fade, and you should be at or near the top again.  It doesn't always happen, of course. However, if a High School or University Y/O/S makes it to Y/O/S in Ozumo, how can one say "Wowee!  That was totally unexpected.  We sure underrated that guy!"  Not when the theme of this thread is finding the "most underrated".

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On 18/09/2021 at 00:24, Asojima said:

Hakuho

This makes perfect sense.

In the context of "underrated/overlooked", you really can't be talking much about now.  How would we know now who is overlooked or underrated today?  That information won't be available until later.  Thus, the context really has to be "at some point in the past, compared to what they accomplished", and you can't get any further underrated than to go from not being able to find a heya to take you until the last minute because you were too skinny, to go on to be the most dominant Yokozuna ever.

Edited by Gurowake
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4 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

This makes perfect sense.

In the context of "underrated/overlooked", you really can't be talking much about now.  How would we know now who is overlooked or underrated today?  That information won't be available until later.  Thus, the context really has to be "at some point in the past, compared to what they accomplished", and you can't get any further from being underrated than not being able to find a heya to take you until the last minute because you were too skinny to go on to be the most dominant Yokozuna ever.

As far as Japan knew, Hakuho was a nobody; however, in Mongolia he had a  background in Bökh and a famous father.  Kakuryu's father was a professor, and he never wrestled before going to Japan.  Neither Hakuho nor Kakuryu went to a heya known to be a sekitori-mill.  (Harumafuji, OTOH, had a famous wrestling father and got into a powerful heya.)

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4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

As far as Japan knew, Hakuho was a nobody; however, in Mongolia he had a  background in Bökh and a famous father.

According to Wikipedia at least, Hakuho had no wrestling training at all, just good genes, along with a desire to become a rikishi.  Harumafuji did do Mongolian wrestling, though his father wasn't quite as good as Hakuho's.  Kakuryu, yeah, no one saw him coming at all, so I suppose that might be an even bigger blowout of expectations, since at least Hakuho had genes.

Edited by Gurowake

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Just now, Gurowake said:

According to Wikipedia at least, Hakuho had no wrestling training at all, just good genes, along with a desire to become a rikishi.

Wow!  I stand corrected.

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5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

As far as Japan knew, Hakuho was a nobody; however, in Mongolia he had a  background in Bökh and a famous father.  Kakuryu's father was a professor, and he never wrestled before going to Japan.  Neither Hakuho nor Kakuryu went to a heya known to be a sekitori-mill.  (Harumafuji, OTOH, had a famous wrestling father and got into a powerful heya.)

Ajigawa heya was a new heya. Athough the shisho is a former yokozuna, they had no track record yet, so Harumafuji, Aminishiki & Asofuji are the 1st generation success story. 

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19 hours ago, rhyen said:

Ajigawa heya was a new heya. Athough the shisho is a former yokozuna, they had no track record yet, so Harumafuji, Aminishiki & Asofuji are the 1st generation success story. 

Not sure Asofuji is a success story, but considering that Isegahama has been really strong over the years thanks to good coaching, I think the point still somewhat stands that Harumafuji got into a good heya, compared to Hakuho and Kakuryu. I'm not sure he would have made yokozuna in a lesser heya. 

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Not sure Asofuji is a success story, but considering that Isegahama has been really strong over the years thanks to good coaching, I think the point still somewhat stands that Harumafuji got into a good heya, compared to Hakuho and Kakuryu. I'm not sure he would have made yokozuna in a lesser heya. 

I have mixed feelings about Asofuji. On the one hand he made sekitori and that has to be considered a success story. On the other of course was the yaocho scandal.

Terunofuji would probably not have made Yokozuna either if he had not moved to Isegahama. If he had remained stuck at Magaki under former Yokozuna Wakanohana II then he most likely wouldn't have done. If he had moved to another stable (I think he wanted to move to Miyagino) there would have been a good chance that he would have retired when he was injured/ill and falling down the banzuke. Isegahama did quite a lot to persuade him to keep going when times were very dark.

 

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Thinking about the current crop, I'd like to add Shimanoumi's name to the list. After a promising career start was stalled by injury, he eventually settled near the top of Makushita, where he spent more than three years. Eventually he broke into Juryo, but he wasn't someone who got much attention, until suddenly in 2019 at the age of nearly 30 he managed the rare feat of winning back-to-back Juryo yusho and finally reached Makuuchi, where he has managed to hold his own, even going 10-5 and getting a kanto-sho in his debut basho. He's been there for 14 basho straight now, even making it as high as the joi earlier this year. Not bad for a guy who's now 32.

Edited by Eikokurai
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It's probably safe to say that after Shimanoumi hit the makushita joi, his sumo needed some time to mature further. Looking at his career record and general trajectory, I think he might just make it to sanyaku for a basho or two.

Edited by Seiyashi

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Yoshikaze - fearless and ready to spill blood, rushing head first. Also strong despite the smallish appearance. He tsuridashied ozeki Terunofuji once.

Sokokurai - this guy is really strong. Liked to lift people. Nishikigi also has somewhat above average strength like him.

Chiyoooootori - nearly immune to forward falls at some point in the past. Commentators go ochinai, ochinai.

And of course as mentioned above, little Sato (seen as a basically mawashied potato when first showed up, who would've thought) and Kakuryu.

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