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More Takatoriki nonsense.

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I have to say I never really took to Hōshōryū  so I'm not a "follower" or anything.

He did have some luck as he happened to perform well at a time when things around him were going in the right way.

Having said that, you have to admit that he did get the 8-7s and that is what was required to keep himself where he is.

No point to criticise him because he is still quite young and there's probably a lot of pressure on.

Still, he di manage to get the 8-7 both times even when it sometimes appeared he wouldn't.

I wont make any conclusion as it too early.

The best thing is to see how he performs from here on in which will be the real test.

So keep an open mind.

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Everybody's looking for the next Dai-Yokozuna - someone who will make sanyaku while barely 20 years old, become Ozeki by 22, and Yokozuna by 24, and win 20 Yusho.  There has pretty much been some sort of Dai-Yokozuna for most of the history of the sport if you take a historical perspective and count ones that were just coming up.  With the retirement of Hakuho, many people assume we're due for another one, while not being very happy with the status quo of around a dozen consistent joi rikishi who don't seem that much different from each other and thus struggle to even get KKs.  Thus every single rikishi who has the potential due to their youth when rising quickly through the ranks is going to be pegged as the next greatest thing.  I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not, but there was a comment on a Hokuseiho bout on YouTube saying that people would get sick of him winning so much 5 years down the road.  Atamifuji should be the next one to get hyped up based on his youth, with a chance to hit Makuuchi right about when he turns 20 if he gets a good score next basho.

 

 

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6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I was a fan of Takatoriki as a rikishi but I've no truck with him as a YouTube conspiracy theorist, so what surprises me is that the above just appears to be some very sensible advice for his estranged son.

 

I saw it as a refreshing sign of humility.

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

Everybody's looking for the next Dai-Yokozuna - someone who will make sanyaku while barely 20 years old, become Ozeki by 22, and Yokozuna by 24, and win 20 Yusho.  There has pretty much been some sort of Dai-Yokozuna for most of the history of the sport if you take a historical perspective and count ones that were just coming up.  With the retirement of Hakuho, many people assume we're due for another one, while not being very happy with the status quo of around a dozen consistent joi rikishi who don't seem that much different from each other and thus struggle to even get KKs.  Thus every single rikishi who has the potential due to their youth when rising quickly through the ranks is going to be pegged as the next greatest thing.  I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not, but there was a comment on a Hokuseiho bout on YouTube saying that people would get sick of him winning so much 5 years down the road.  Atamifuji should be the next one to get hyped up based on his youth, with a chance to hit Makuuchi right about when he turns 20 if he gets a good score next basho.

 

 

Yes I think this is precisely it. If you look at 20-Yusho Yokozuna by when they were promoted to Yok:

Taiho: 1961-1971

Kitanoumi: 1974-1985

Chiyonofuji: 1981-1991

Takanohana: 1994-2003

Asashoryu: 2003-2010

Hakuho: 2007-2021

So in the last 60 years we have had 3 periods where there wasn't an active Yok who would go on to win 20 yusho: 1971-1974, 1991-1994, and 2021-present(wonder if the drought will be extinguished in 2024). People just want the next superstar to arrive and Terunofuji isn't scratching that itch

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Posted (edited)

 

20 minutes ago, maglor said:

Taiho: 1961-1971

Kitanoumi: 1974-1985

Chiyonofuji: 1981-1991

Takanohana: 1994-2003

The Taiho-Kitanoumi gap was somewhat filled with Kitanofuji (who won 10 Yusho so maybe is a dai-yokozuna - but then Terunofuji could easily hit that himself), and then a bit better by Wajima, who won his first Yusho in 1972, two years before Kitanoumi's first.  Tamanoumi would have filled this gap even better if if he had just taken his illness seriously.   But certainly the time between Taiho and Kitanoumi's dominance was similar to what we have now with a lot of one-time winners.

Takanohana was pretty dominant before he got promoted to Yokozuna (7 Yusho) - I'd count any time since his first yusho when he was 19 (1992.01) as a period of having a dai-yokozuna, though there was an unusually high number of 1-time winners in that period as well.  Chiyonofuji also retired 2 days after losing to him, and that was clearly a handoff of generations. 

People are looking for the Wajimas, Kitanoumis and Takanohanas, but no one is standing out. 

Edited by Gurowake
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We'll have to wait for Toyoda Rinnosuke (13). He was quoted on Birth-Day again with his goal to surpass the number of yusho by Hakuho.

On 29/05/2022 at 19:08, Akinomaki said:

After the club presentation, yesterday TBS Birth-Day had its most prominent members at the moment: Toyoda Rinnosuke. Magaki wants to have him for Miyagino-beya.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1oZ4y1b7fX

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8 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

We'll have to wait for Toyoda Rinnosuke (13). He was quoted on Birth-Day again with his goal to surpass the number of yusho by Hakuho.

What's the odds he does a Takanohana and starts fresh out of high school? 

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From the programs I've watched of him, I get the sense that he'd join as soon as possible (out of middle school).

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4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

What's the odds he does a Takanohana and starts fresh out of high school? 

He also wants to become youngest ever yokozuna, so he has to join after middle school, like Takanohana, Hakuho, Taiho ...

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16 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

He also wants to become youngest ever yokozuna, so he has to join after middle school, like Takanohana, Hakuho, Taiho ...

Sounds like he's got quite an ego.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

He also wants to become youngest ever yokozuna, so he has to join after middle school, like Takanohana, Hakuho, Taiho ...

I don't think that's necessary.  It's certainly a lot harder, but if he's good enough he'd probably manage to get an MsTD and from there it's possible to get to Yokozuna in less than 12 basho even if you take a bit more than the absolute minimum with 2 in Makushita, 2 in Juryo, 2 in Makuuchi before starting an Ozeki run, 3 in an Ozeki run and 2 more to become Yokozuna in 11 basho.  You can most likely cut one basho out of the first 4 of those groups if you're perfect.  That should get him to Yokozuna before turning 21, even if he's almost 19 when he enters.

Not that I think very much of the possibility of that happening, but it seems possible.  Merely SdTD would cut it very close, and it's probably not possible from Mz without absolute perfection and a favorable birthday (assuming HS graduation).

Edited by Gurowake

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Posted (edited)
On 03/06/2022 at 17:03, Gurowake said:

I don't think that's necessary.  It's certainly a lot harder, but if he's good enough he'd probably manage to get an MsTD and from there it's possible to get to Yokozuna in less than 12 basho even if you take a bit more than the absolute minimum with 2 in Makushita, 2 in Juryo, 2 in Makuuchi before starting an Ozeki run, 3 in an Ozeki run and 2 more to become Yokozuna in 11 basho.  You can most likely cut one basho out of the first 4 of those groups if you're perfect.  That should get him to Yokozuna before turning 21, even if he's almost 19 when he enters.

Not that I think very much of the possibility of that happening, but it seems possible.  Merely SdTD would cut it very close, and it's probably not possible from Mz without absolute perfection and a favorable birthday (assuming HS graduation).

This is pretty much exactly what Terunofuji did in his comeback: if we count Ms10 as basho number 1, he became Yokozuna in the 11th basho. 1 Ms, 2 J, 2 M, 3 K/S, 2 O. The absolute minimum probably could have been two basho quicker, if he'd gone 15-0 at J13 instead of 13-2, and if his basho at M1 had been stronger than 8-5-2.

It's theoretically possible to spend only 4 basho before reaching juryo by going 28-0, though nobody's managed it, Jokoryu coming the closest.

Edited by Reonito

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On 02/06/2022 at 22:41, SDM said:

I have to say I never really took to Hōshōryū  so I'm not a "follower" or anything.

He did have some luck as he happened to perform well at a time when things around him were going in the right way.

Having said that, you have to admit that he did get the 8-7s and that is what was required to keep himself where he is.

No point to criticise him because he is still quite young and there's probably a lot of pressure on.

Still, he di manage to get the 8-7 both times even when it sometimes appeared he wouldn't.

I wont make any conclusion as it too early.

The best thing is to see how he performs from here on in which will be the real test.

So keep an open mind.

I personally feel that Hoshoryu is right on schedule and as he continues to add bulk and experience in upper Joi/Sanyaku, his first yusho and Ozeki run is just a matter of time. 

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On 04/06/2022 at 02:03, Gurowake said:

I don't think that's necessary.  It's certainly a lot harder, but if he's good enough he'd probably manage to get an MsTD and from there it's possible to get to Yokozuna in less than 12 basho even if you take a bit more than the absolute minimum with 2 in Makushita, 2 in Juryo, 2 in Makuuchi before starting an Ozeki run, 3 in an Ozeki run and 2 more to become Yokozuna in 11 basho.  You can most likely cut one basho out of the first 4 of those groups if you're perfect.  That should get him to Yokozuna before turning 21, even if he's almost 19 when he enters. 

Not that I think very much of the possibility of that happening, but it seems possible.  Merely SdTD would cut it very close, and it's probably not possible from Mz without absolute perfection and a favorable birthday (assuming HS graduation).

Toyoda would have to win the All Japan for a MsTD, the only one who did this while in high school was Kushimaumi, who later only made it to maegashira 1. He also will need some time to get the body of a pro, that's why only those who entered after middle school made it to the highest ranks at young age. It's theoretically possible to become youngest ever yokozuna as high school graduate, but very unwise to try this path.

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On 04/06/2022 at 00:54, Gurowake said:

Sounds like he's got quite an ego.

It's my experience that self-belief is a major factor towards success in just about any field, certainly in sumo.
Admittedly, though, it's probably unwise to broadcast it until you've demonstrated you can walk the walk as well.

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9 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

It's my experience that self-belief is a major factor towards success in just about any field, certainly in sumo.
Admittedly, though, it's probably unwise to broadcast it until you've demonstrated you can walk the walk as well.

The trouble is that the line between self belief and ego is very fine and it's very hard for someone with a large amount of self belief to shut up about it.

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Here's a little project for someone with nothing to do between basho.  Go back to rikishi's shin kisha kaiken and record their self-predictions: "I will make (sekitori, sanyaku, Yokozuna)".  Then find out how they did.  I will stick my neck out and predict a 5% success rate.  Has anyone said, "Well, with my background and athletic gifts, I'm hoping to break through to Makushita"?

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Posted (edited)

Confidence is good - to an extent. Too much of it can prevent someone from properly preparing, as well as from being honest about their flaws and correcting them.

Edited by Katooshu
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Posted (edited)

Whenever i hear Taka-nonsense, wether from -toriki or -nohana in the past, i see this:

Spoiler

 

And regarding Hoshoryu...of all the active Y/(ex)Os, only Terunofuji and Asanoyama managed 2+ consecutive KK in their sanyaku debut, so he's got that going for him.

Edited by Benihana
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

It's my experience that self-belief is a major factor towards success in just about any field, certainly in sumo.
Admittedly, though, it's probably unwise to broadcast it until you've demonstrated you can walk the walk as well.

In combat sports especially, self belief is very important. But to my mind, where self belief and confidence separate from ego and conceit is how it relates to one's opponent.

Self belief and confidence are about faith in one's skills and abilities to carry the day, and are a reflection on yourself. Ego and conceit involve those beliefs manifesting as being dismissive of and insulting to one's opponent. This can often be a feigned thing, as if one lacks true self confidence one fakes it by acting with derision towards your fellow competitors. 

Regardless, you can have all the self confidence in the world and still extend courtesy and respect to those you face in competition.

It's here that Hoshoryu is losing me at least, as whether he has the self confidence or not, it's manifesting as disrespect towards others, rather than confidence in his own abilities. 

I appreciate this is all highly influenced by my own preferences regarding athletes and particularly martial artists, but it's not so much about Hoshoryu "broadcasting" as what he's choosing to broadcast. 

Edited by Tochinofuji
Typo and clarity (sentence regarding "feigning" it in wrong spot)
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Posted (edited)
On 05/06/2022 at 16:06, RabidJohn said:

It's my experience that self-belief is a major factor towards success in just about any field, certainly in sumo.
 

However, it can just as often be a reason that you fail to succeed because you don't put enough effort into it, thinking that talent alone will carry you to where you want to go.  That certainly was a problem I had, not from my own ego, but from everyone else telling me how academically talented I was.  I did very little to help that talent along besides what my parents forced me to do, because I didn't have grand plans for myself (nor do I now).  However, it led to a lot of problems with me trying to do much of anything after leaving school, as I didn't do anything that showed how talented I was besides get a good GPA.

If he aims to beat Hakuho's Yusho record he should understand that it will require a lot of hard work and dedication, but he also might see the total lack of any amazing talent at the top of the banzuke now and figure he can coast.

Edited by Gurowake
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15 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Here's a little project for someone with nothing to do between basho.  Go back to rikishi's shin kisha kaiken and record their self-predictions: "I will make (sekitori, sanyaku, Yokozuna)".  Then find out how they did.  I will stick my neck out and predict a 5% success rate.  

Haha! I know this is probably tongue firmly in cheek but it's not an idea I hate, if one were to limit it to rikishi who - and I don't know how this is qualified - are prospects of some legitimacy.

15 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Has anyone said, "Well, with my background and athletic gifts, I'm hoping to break through to Makushita"?

Have to imagine you wouldn't find many who would publicly hope never to make a salary from their life's work... :)

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6 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

Haha! I know this is probably tongue firmly in cheek but it's not an idea I hate, if one were to limit it to rikishi who - and I don't know how this is qualified - are prospects of some legitimacy.

I suspect that issue is self-resolving because non-prospects rarely, if ever, have their career hopes asked and reported.
 

6 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

Have to imagine you wouldn't find many who would publicly hope never to make a salary from their life's work... :)

Occasionally we read of a shisho saying he hopes to get [random recruit] to makushita in X years, obviously not meaning to imply that he already thinks the kid isn't good for anything more, but that sekitoridom won't be a sure thing. Inasmuch as recruits themselves are mentioning goals less than juryo at all, it's usually something ambitious anyway (like a middle school grad wanting to be there in two years) and presented as just a stepping stone.

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2 hours ago, themistyseas said:

Haha! I know this is probably tongue firmly in cheek but it's not an idea I hate, if one were to limit it to rikishi who - and I don't know how this is qualified - are prospects of some legitimacy.

Have to imagine you wouldn't find many who would publicly hope never to make a salary from their life's work... :)

Strangely, I find that I commented on  a kid who entered Onomatsubeya in 7/2020: "His present goal is to reach makushita, and then "juryo within 5 years, like the oyakata" "

This is Akiyoshi, who did make Ms56 before sliding back; however, he scored 5-2 at Sd50 this basho, so maybe he's back on track, and if things follow the plan, he'll be in Juryo by Nagoya 2025.

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