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Swami

More Takatoriki nonsense.

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Posted (edited)

I see Chris Gould has posted a video with more Takatoriki silliness, though it started off seriously by announcing the apparent death a couple of months ago of ex-Kasuganishiki, one of those dismissed in 2011 for match-fixing.  I checked Wikipedia and no mention of death yet.

However, Takatoriki does not stop at that, he is now alleging, quite randomly, that the winner of the Makunouchi yusho of his Makunouchi debut basho is guilty of fixed bouts - not hard to work out who he's accusing.

Sounds like a classic case of sour grapes and someone very much with an axe to grind against the Kyokai, and clearly the poster of the video is anti-Kyokai so it fits in well there.

 

Swami

Edited by Swami
Typo error

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Had to go watch the video again to see what I've missed when watched the 1st time a few hours ago. Turns out, nothing, so I would recommend you watch it again as your post is misleading about the content of the video.

For the ones that didn't watch, video starts with the announcement that Kasuganishiki passed a few months ago (not a couple) and was probably suicide, as per police investigation. Then it moves to the involvement of Kasuganishiki in the match fixing scandal of 2011, which he admitted to be part of (of fixing bouts).

Last 30 seconds or so of the video is the only part where Takatoriki accuses Hokutoumi (Hakkaku) of match fixing.

I don't believe / follow everything Chris says and see the stories on some of his videos more as fiction than real life reports from a journalist (that he calls himself), but in this case the video is not what you say in your post, which as I said above, consider it to be misleading.

 

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6 hours ago, Asapedroryu said:

Had to go watch the video again to see what I've missed when watched the 1st time a few hours ago. Turns out, nothing, so I would recommend you watch it again as your post is misleading about the content of the video.

For the ones that didn't watch, video starts with the announcement that Kasuganishiki passed a few months ago (not a couple) and was probably suicide, as per police investigation. Then it moves to the involvement of Kasuganishiki in the match fixing scandal of 2011, which he admitted to be part of (of fixing bouts).

Last 30 seconds or so of the video is the only part where Takatoriki accuses Hokutoumi (Hakkaku) of match fixing.

I don't believe / follow everything Chris says and see the stories on some of his videos more as fiction than real life reports from a journalist (that he calls himself), but in this case the video is not what you say in your post, which as I said above, consider it to be misleading.

 

What do you consider to be misleading? It sounds like Swami's description has all the content you mention.

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1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

What do you consider to be misleading? It sounds like Swami's description has all the content you mention.

Thanks for that.  It just seems to me that Takatoriki is just another like ex-Itai, permanently with an axe to grind against the Kyokai, possibly motivated by financial issues to come out with these stories. If Takatoriki has so much faith in his views, why doesn't he name the figure he alleges of match-fixing?

He should either put up or shut up.

 

Swami

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Swami said:

It just seems to me that Takatoriki is just another like ex-Itai, permanently with an axe to grind against the Kyokai, possibly motivated by financial issues to come out with these stories. If Takatoriki has so much faith in his views, why doesn't he name the figure he alleges of match-fixing?

If it's indeed motivated by money, he has no reason to put up. The point is trickling these out and spinning them for all they're worth for eyeballs, views, and ultimately ad revenue, rather than whistleblowing and fading into obscurity. Heck, he mightn't even necessarily believe in what he's saying himself, although he probably does harbour animosity towards the present NSK.

I wouldn't go so far as to accuse him of lying, but I've heard of similar stories about content creators from other content creators, so I wouldn't eliminate it as a possibility.

Edited by Seiyashi
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I don't understand if there was a police investigation into Kasuganishiki's death, why no one else has reported it. 

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May just not have been worth reporting. Assuming someone called the authorities after finding his body, the cops may have just walked around the scene, been satisfied it was suicide, and filed the report. That's technically an investigation, and if you are someone needing to blow something out of proportion to make an internet point, it can be made to look worse than it was just by its mere existence.

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If it was just a random member of the public then I would get that but I would have thought the premature death of someone who spent 20 tournaments in makuuchi and was at the centre of a high-profile match-fixing scandal would have attracted at least some attention. 

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Sometimes several months elapse before a death is reported even for ex-oyakata. If nobody calls the newspapers directly its probably not easy for them to find out.

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Posted (edited)

If it is all nonsense, why doesn't Hakkaku sue Takotoriki (and Chris) for defamation?

Come to think of it, why doesn't everyone involved sue the ass off Mike Wesemann?

Edited by Tigerboy1966

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While you technically can sue for defamation (and the NSK's done it before with the Shukan Gendai and Asashoryu affair), probably the calculus is that there's not much point in doing so. Yes, you get monetary damages, but the suit is probably going to cause the Streisand Effect, which is the last thing you want to happen to unsavoury things being said about you.

Also we don't know how Takatoriki's channel is being received in Japan itself. I don't know if his disgraced exit from the NSK pushes his views even further from the mainstream in the eyes of the general public (at least those sections who care about sumo). And I wouldn't be surprised if, given Shibatayama and Oguruma's initial responses to the Asanoyama affair, they underestimate the reach of Youtube and are more inclined to just dismiss it out of hand.

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21 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

If it is all nonsense, why doesn't Hakkaku sue Takotoriki (and Chris) for defamation?

Come to think of it, why doesn't everyone involved sue the ass off Mike Wesemann?

Potentially the Barbara Streisand effect.

More probably it's just not worth it financially to lawyer up.

Chris seems to cop a lot of hate in here, primarily it seems for being a bit flowery in his prose and going a bit to far in the wake of Shobushi's death. It seems a little unfair to me, the first is style, and I speak English well enough to determine when he is stating a source or imagining the thought process of a wrestler. As regards the second, the pandemic affected everyone differently and we should try to be understanding of other people.

He is a great source of sumo info for the casual English speaking fan, and I enjoy seeing how his translation of a Japanese newspaper article varies from Kintanayama's for example. He showcases lower rankers of interest we might not otherwise see and often posts hi Def footage of top division bouts from alternative angles to the nhk footage, which can be very illuminating to newer fans.

 

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For what it's worth, Mrs. Churaumi unsubscribed us from Chris' channel because his (at times) baseless speculation and pointless attempts at pot stirring annoyed her so very, very much.

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4 minutes ago, Mightyduck said:

Chris seems to cop a lot of hate in here, primarily it seems for being a bit flowery in his prose and going a bit to far in the wake of Shobushi's death.

So desu ne…

Shobushi’s death change the way he presents some topics of sumo. His Shobushi’s avatar is used as tribute to him.

In my opinion, Shobushi’s death made Chris despises NSK as an evil organisation. Well some of his videos still has analysis of sumo wrestlers, when he posts video about NSK (and translating Takatoriki’s videos) he uses his platform as a voodoo doll to NSK, but the voodoo effect doesn’t work.

When he opposed the idea hosting basho in kokugikan with 2500 spectators (I forgot which basho that was), he boycotted to post videos during that basho (as respect to Shobushi’s death). Then, he goes on every basho. With current infection rate rising in Tokyo and no news of cancellation, will he still dare to come wandering every corner of Tokyo and visit Kokugikan in almost full 15 days? If I were him, I wouldn’t risking my health, even with full protection, to watch 5 hours of sumo live. But, no content, no income.

Side note: is being Kotoshoho’s koenkai member eases Chris to come every basho?

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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

If it is all nonsense, why doesn't Hakkaku sue Takotoriki (and Chris) for defamation?

Come to think of it, why doesn't everyone involved sue the ass off Mike Wesemann?

What would this prove?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mightyduck said:

He is a great source of sumo info for the casual English speaking fan, and I enjoy seeing how his translation of a Japanese newspaper article varies from Kintanayama's for example.

 

Is that so? I would be interested to see how they differ. How could anyone know we translate the same sources, as I never disclose mine? There is usually more than one source when the news is big, so I would imagine the translations would naturally be different. Other than that, I am whistling.

Edited by Kintamayama

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3 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:
4 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

If it is all nonsense, why doesn't Hakkaku sue Takotoriki (and Chris) for defamation?

Come to think of it, why doesn't everyone involved sue the ass off Mike Wesemann?

What would this prove?

It could challenge the assertions made by Takatoriki about match-fixing in the 1990's and by Mike about match-fixing in the 2010's and 2020's.  We know that there was a period between those dates when numerous wrestlers took part in rigged bouts, so was that just a rotten era?  My point is that whether or not Takatoriki is correct in his allegations the man knows more about what goes on inside the game than anyone posting here, and it's unwise to blow away his opinions as "nonsense".

As Loki said "Hey you know what, **** you man, because time will tell on that."

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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

It could challenge the assertions made by Takatoriki about match-fixing in the 1990's and by Mike about match-fixing in the 2010's and 2020's.  We know that there was a period between those dates when numerous wrestlers took part in rigged bouts, so was that just a rotten era?  My point is that whether or not Takatoriki is correct in his allegations the man knows more about what goes on inside the game than anyone posting here, and it's unwise to blow away his opinions as "nonsense".

As Loki said "Hey you know what, **** you man, because time will tell on that."

I think this would work in most Western countries, but in Japan you can sue for defamation and win even if the person defaming you can prove that everything they are saying is 100% true. To sue someone for defamation all you have to demonstrate is lost business due to the other person's statements. So if you had a bunch of people (maybe rich supporters) giving up buying tickets because of Takatoriki's videos it'd be a slam dunk of a case - the NSK wouldn't have to prove the statements he is making are false.

Its not even a grey area, its clearly written like that in the legal code.

Of course Takatoriki might welcome being sued, a perfect opportunity to prove how the NSK is out to get people.

I'm not arguing there wasn't match exchanges or even yaocho, especially then since we know it happened for a fact. (I get a feeling that way in the past, before yushos were a thing, sumo was more like jungyous are now and shoot fights were more rare). But if Kasuganishiki has sadly committed suicide, its pretty low to insinuate that somebody had him killed and covered it up as a suicide, to both the NSK and Kasuganishiki.  Its bold to extrapolate Kasuganishiki's story based on a ten year old tape interview of his sister, especially when Kasuganishiki himself can't give his own input.

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18 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Is that so? I would be interested to see how they differ. How could anyone know we translate the same sources, as I never disclose mine? There is usually more than one source when the news is big, so I would imagine the translations would naturally be different. Other than that, I am whistling.

One example would be thedaily post match wrestler interviews etc. Which presumably are reported verbatim in Japanese. Next time I spot a difference I'll post it in the thread for info.

 

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1 minute ago, Mightyduck said:
18 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Is that so? I would be interested to see how they differ. How could anyone know we translate the same sources, as I never disclose mine? There is usually more than one source when the news is big, so I would imagine the translations would naturally be different. Other than that, I am whistling.

One example would be thedaily post match wrestler interviews etc. Which presumably are reported verbatim in Japanese. Next time I spot a difference I'll post it in the thread for info.

 

Even those have a few different sources.. Please do-I'm intrigued..

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On 21/08/2021 at 10:38, code_number3 said:

So desu ne…

Shobushi’s death change the way he presents some topics of sumo. His Shobushi’s avatar is used as tribute to him.

In my opinion, Shobushi’s death made Chris despises NSK as an evil organisation. Well some of his videos still has analysis of sumo wrestlers, when he posts video about NSK (and translating Takatoriki’s videos) he uses his platform as a voodoo doll to NSK, but the voodoo effect doesn’t work.

When he opposed the idea hosting basho in kokugikan with 2500 spectators (I forgot which basho that was), he boycotted to post videos during that basho (as respect to Shobushi’s death). Then, he goes on every basho. With current infection rate rising in Tokyo and no news of cancellation, will he still dare to come wandering every corner of Tokyo and visit Kokugikan in almost full 15 days? If I were him, I wouldn’t risking my health, even with full protection, to watch 5 hours of sumo live. But, no content, no income.

Side note: is being Kotoshoho’s koenkai member eases Chris to come every basho?

Honestly I believe that Chris' opinion went south a lot sooner than this, namely the Asanoyama vs Tochinoshin mono-ii debacle. I truly believe that in his mind, that match was fixed so that a Japanese rikishi was going to win the yusho of that basho. And unfortunately with a lot of his rhetoric, his channel fans that have no idea of sumo or Japanese culture outside of what they are getting from Chris are led to believe that the NSK is an evil money grabbing organization that does not care about their wrestlers at all and corrupt 100%. Chris provides interesting commentary when he sticks to talking about the matches and wrestlers' progress themselves, but when it comes to his criticism of the JSA, they are really cringe. 

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On 22/08/2021 at 09:28, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I think this would work in most Western countries, but in Japan you can sue for defamation and win even if the person defaming you can prove that everything they are saying is 100% true. To sue someone for defamation all you have to demonstrate is lost business due to the other person's statements. So if you had a bunch of people (maybe rich supporters) giving up buying tickets because of Takatoriki's videos it'd be a slam dunk of a case - the NSK wouldn't have to prove the statements he is making are false.

Its not even a grey area, its clearly written like that in the legal code.

That is a selective reading of the criminal code, literally Article 230 but ignoring Article 230-2. Japanese defamation law is not far removed from that of British and Commonwealth countries so in the interest of tamping down any "weird Japan" vibes that might develop I'd like to clarify that Japan is not incredibly strange in this area. There is a far greater schism between England and the United States than there is between England and Japan when it comes to defamation. But Japanese law in this area is quite conservative and many would consider it old-fashioned at best. Fortunately some of the really nasty stuff like lèse-majesté was abolished during allied occupation.

Article 230 sets up the baseline for criminal defamation: "A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished...". It doesn't actually require any demonstration of loss, so in a way it's actually a bit worse! Article 230-2 states that the truthfulness is examined when the facts "relate to matters of public interest", and explicitly allows "matters concerning the criminal act of a person who has not been prosecuted". There are a few other things, e.g. truthfulness is tested in claims against the deceased and public officials/election candidates, and just insulting someone outright is punishable. Then there is the civil code, which is more about demonstrating lost reputation, getting an apology or compensation.

It is just my opinion but I would say match-fixing in Sumo is in the public interest, whereas (for example) the exact particulars of Ryuden's indiscretions would not. If any ever wonder why Japanese news in Japan can be so dry and informal it's partly due to laws like these.

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7 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Honestly I believe that Chris' opinion went south a lot sooner than this, namely the Asanoyama vs Tochinoshin mono-ii debacle. I truly believe that in his mind, that match was fixed so that a Japanese rikishi was going to win the yusho of that basho. And unfortunately with a lot of his rhetoric, his channel fans that have no idea of sumo or Japanese culture outside of what they are getting from Chris are led to believe that the NSK is an evil money grabbing organization that does not care about their wrestlers at all and corrupt 100%. Chris provides interesting commentary when he sticks to talking about the matches and wrestlers' progress themselves, but when it comes to his criticism of the JSA, they are really cringe. 

His lickspittling of Hakuho is extremely annoying as well.

 

Swami

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Posted (edited)
On 21/08/2021 at 23:22, Tigerboy1966 said:

It could challenge the assertions made by Takatoriki about match-fixing in the 1990's and by Mike about match-fixing in the 2010's and 2020's.  We know that there was a period between those dates when numerous wrestlers took part in rigged bouts, so was that just a rotten era? My point is that whether or not Takatoriki is correct in his allegations the man knows more about what goes on inside the game than anyone posting here, and it's unwise to blow away his opinions as "nonsense".

Eh, the allegation against Hokutoumi is old hat. Itai claimed that basically every tournament was rigged at the top in some way during Chiyonofuji's tenure as the top yokozuna, the only big name not participating having been Onokuni; Takatoriki has merely decided to pick on one particular target here. I wonder if you'd be so quick to treat it as something worth taking seriously if, say, he had decided to go after Konishiki instead (who Itai also named).

Edited by Asashosakari
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Almost right on cue, Chris has posted another new video today "Kasuganishiki - the man who knew too much".

Swami

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