Hakuhou caught watching Judo

[Benihana 1,929]

I have to admit something. When i first saw the headline and that the thread was created by Sir @Kintamayama, i expected a late april's fool. Like "Hakuho caught slacking on his sofa instead of training, watching Judo on TV" and something like in the spoilers. Hakuho actually being at the venue, never came to my mind.

 

Spoiler

 

[RabidJohn 1,829]

4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That makes no sense, I'm afraid. The grace period toshiyori need to be approved like any regular one.

That makes sense. Thank you for the correction.

[Kintamayama 45,408]

5 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Well, I know you are not a lawyer, but you are clearly not a lawyer.

Clearly, but I fear you know what I meant.. Now, do you have a concrete argument saying Hakuhou is OK and there was no breaking of any rules? Are we still in ST mode?

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

16 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Clearly, but I fear you know what I meant.. Now, do you have a concrete argument saying Hakuhou is OK and there was no breaking of any rules? Are we still in ST mode?

What I tried to tell you is that in real life and law (aka outside of, say, the NSK's jurisdiction) there is of course always an appreciation of circumstances. That's why people who accidentally kill someone are not sentenced for murder (usually). Now it might be that you think that Asanoyama was punished solely on the not-going-out rule. That may be, and in this case Hakuho shouldn't expect anything else. Nevertheless, I agree with the notion that seen as a whole, Hakuho's "offence" is rather a missed PR oportunity and has nothing to do with spelunking through nightclubs and lying about it.

And it is beyond me, what ST should have to do with anything these days, apart from providing the cheap quip against freewheeling in the more than common stew of wild speculation. I don't deny my socialisation. I rather embrace it. But I have eyes to see and a decently functional mind.

[Seiyashi 4,106]

58 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

What I tried to tell you is that in real life and law (aka outside of, say, the NSK's jurisdiction) there is of course always an appreciation of circumstances. That's why people who accidentally kill someone are not sentenced for murder (usually).

At the risk of sending this even further off topic, and to broach a topic most legal practitioners would rather not existed (and which law students will run screaming in terror from), in the context of determining whether a rule has been broken or not, the appreciation of circumstances usually ends up going back to what the rule-maker intended. Not to mention that circumstances are so varied that it's possible to almost always draw on some circumstance that favours your particular interpretation, especially in rare cases where there's no directly applicable precedent to constrain the present decision in the name of broad fairness.

When the rule-maker is still around and deciding the rules, then it's essentially alterable at whim, especially for a body like the NSK which isn't necessarily overly constrained by many of the same rules of natural justice that would constrain a court (and is in fact more like an executive rather than a judicial body, which significantly changes the standards under which they operate).

To bring it back down to the practical, it basically depends on how the powers that be want to characterise Hakuho's visit - and Shibatayama's tirade shows precisely which way they do want to. They could have excused the visit by saying the Tokyo Olympics had its own rules in place, he was adhering to mask-wearing protocol in the photo, and that not every activity needed to be reported to the NSK especially as he appeared to be there in his private capacity rather than performing a public function which presumably needed the NSK's approval. That they chose to play up that no spectators were allowed, that he had to seek permission, tells you exactly what they think and they're citing the factors in their approval. I wouldn't call it a kangaroo court, but the NSK's conclusion on this affair is more or less foregone.

In short, save in cases where it's so absolutely clear cut that no wrong or no right was done, there's almost always a way to characterise it one way or the other - which means an element of arbitrariness on the part of the decision-maker inevitably creeps in more than we would like.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Kintamayama 45,408]

2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

What I tried to tell you is that in real life and law (aka outside of, say, the NSK's jurisdiction) there is of course always an appreciation of circumstances. That's why people who accidentally kill someone are not sentenced for murder (usually). Now it might be that you think that Asanoyama was punished solely on the not-going-out rule. 

 

Asanoyama was solely punished for going out. His punishment was much worse because he lied. As for ST, it was an uncalled for ribbing. Apologies.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

42 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Apologies

No worries. We're good.

[Kaminariyuki 499]

While the Hakuho detractors here on the forum had me a little worked up, and although there could easily still be repercussions, my Japanese sumo friends tell me that this story isn't getting much traction in Japan. Even my sumo pal who hates Hakuho was like, "So what, no big deal." Either way, Hakuho is going to be Hakuho. I think he does still want to be an oyakata but as I've contemplated the words of others here, I doubt he is at all concerned about kyokai politics. My suspicion is that he simply wants to recruit the best lads he can and train them to become the best rikishi possible. 

I hope he still gets that opportunity.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kaminariyuki

[Seiyashi 4,106]

50 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

my Japanese sumo friends tell me that this story isn't getting much traction in Japan. Even my sumo pal who hates Hakuho was like, "So what, no big deal."

That's interesting, because it opens up the question (or removes it, rather) of what gallery Shibatayama may be playing to.

The most inane reason (Hanlon's Razor at work) I can think for this whole thing is - the oyakata aren't adept with SNS, and fell into the trap of reacting to initial kneejerk responses to Vizer's photo given the, as I understand it, general unhappiness with the Olympics proceeding overall. Either that, or it could just be noise made for internal consumption within the NSK.

And absence of evidence is not proof of negation, but it's interesting that it doesn't seem like the YDC hasn't weighed in so far either, when they are usually pretty quick to hop on the bandwagon of Hakuho-bashing. So either they haven't been interviewed by the media, or they're as ambivalent about it as your friends are to the point where there was no point reporting what they said.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Seiyashi

[junsan 193]

Great need for a new scandal so that this sorry excuse for one may just go away.

[Kaminariyuki 499]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

That's interesting, because it opens up the question (or removes it, rather) of what gallery Shibatayama may be playing to. 

The most inane reason (Hanlon's Razor at work) I can think for this whole thing is - the oyakata aren't adept with SNS, and fell into the trap of reacting to initial kneejerk responses to Vizer's photos given the general unhappiness with the Olympics overall.

I'm going with that line for the moment, although one never knows the reaction of the press and public. Two days before our Miyagino beya visit in January, 2020 there was a fist fight between Hokaho and Ishiura. I was genuinely unnerved as I figured bad press could easily wipe out our plans. It could have gone that way of course, but the reaction was flat, along the lines of "they're fighters. Occasionally there will be fight." In the end, there was no problem except Ishiura was fined and the two rikishi. were told to not let it happen again. I'm not equating the two scenarios, only the point that one never knows which way public opinion will swing. 

[Churaumi 743]

It's been the better part of a week with nothing new, I'm mentally filing this under "failed controversy" until something new comes out.

[Seiyashi 4,106]

5 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

I'm going with that line for the moment, although one never knows the reaction of the press and public. Two days before our Miyagino beya visit in January, 2020 there was a fist fight between Hokaho and Ishiura. I was genuinely unnerved as I figured bad press could easily wipe out our plans. It could have gone that way of course, but the reaction was flat, along the lines of "they're fighters. Occasionally there will be fight." In the end, there was no problem except Ishiura was fined and the two rikishi. were told to not let it happen again. I'm not equating the two scenarios, only the point that one never knows which way public opinion will swing. 

That gives me the general impression (which makes sense once you think about it) that the sumo public at large are more easygoing on a lot of these scandals than the NSK is. Were there any incidents where the general sumo public were more het up about things than the bosses? Some possible candidates that come to mind would be the heya abuse scandals like with Tokitsukaze or Takanohana, but I don't have any insight at all into the Japanese fanbase.

1 minute ago, Churaumi said:

It's been the better part of a week with nothing new, I'm mentally filing this under "failed controversy" until something new comes out.

In a smoky meeting room somewhere under the Kokugikan:

Oguruma: "Brother Shibatayama, anything to report?"

Shibatayama: "Unfortunately no, the press and the YDC aren't taking the bait. Can't you go do something about it, like introduce ex-Yoshikaze's wife to Hakuho's wife or something?"

Edited August 5, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Benevolance 2,501]

We could all chip in and buy some kensho banner that read something like: "Oi, what happened to the judo scandal, eh?"

[ryafuji 815]

1 hour ago, Kaminariyuki said:

While the Hakuho detractors here on the forum had me a little worked up, and although there could easily still be repercussions, my Japanese sumo friends tell me that this story isn't getting much traction in Japan. 

I find it interesting that none of the Japan Times, Asahi Shimbun, Kyodo News or the Mainichi have bothered to do an English language version of the story. 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,275]

46 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

I find it interesting that none of the Japan Times, Asahi Shimbun, Kyodo News or the Mainichi have bothered to do an English language version of the story. 

I think it's more about avoiding even more negative and unnecessary stories about Olympics, rather than proving the nsk right or wrong. 

[Yamanashi 3,876]

It's not like the stands are empty for Judo; they have team members/coaches up there, as you can see from highlights videos; probably others who have a peripheral excuse for being there.  This does not look like the cavernous, echoing Kokugikan during the lockdown basho.

[hakutorizakura 637]

On 04/08/2021 at 19:30, Benihana said:

I have to admit something. When i first saw the headline and that the thread was created by Sir @Kintamayama, i expected a late april's fool. Like "Hakuho caught slacking on his sofa instead of training, watching Judo on TV" and something like in the spoilers. Hakuho actually being at the venue, never came to my mind.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Exactly my thought 

Especially as the thread appeared next to "Takagenji caught smoking weed".

[sumojoann 1,267]

On 04/08/2021 at 06:50, Godango said:

According to reports:

"The NSK is on summer holiday until 9 August . There seems to be no hurry to take action, such as holding an extraordinary meeting of the board of directors.".

We should wait til the 9th to see what action they might take.

[Yamanashi 3,876]

2 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

We should wait til the 9th to see what action they might take.

But that's 3 or 4 days from now.  What if we forget about this issue before then??

[sumojoann 1,267]

On 04/08/2021 at 09:40, Benevolance said:

That gives us FIVE DAYS to speculate! We can get this threads power level to over 20 pages. 

I agree with @Yamanashi.  What if we forget about this issue before then? lol

Edited August 6, 2021 by sumojoann

[Jemuzu 34]

On 06/08/2021 at 01:42, sumojoann said:

I agree with @Yamanashi.  What if we forget about this issue before then? lol

It seems like we did…

The 9th has been and gone and no news? Perhaps it was a storm in a teacup

[ViscountessNivlac 27]

6 minutes ago, Jemuzu said:

It seems like we did…

The 9th has been and gone and no news? Perhaps it was a storm in a teacup

Unless their break was until the ninth so they’ll be back on the tenth? It wasn’t entirely clear to me.

[Kaninoyama 1,808]

14 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

Unless their break was until the ninth so they’ll be back on the tenth? It wasn’t entirely clear to me.

Today is a national holiday in Japan so that is likely. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Kaninoyama

[Kintamayama 45,408]

"I have not heard anything new about this kyokai-wise," said Shibatayama today.