Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Just to clarify - this is connected with the family registry kept at the shiyakusho? So it would apply to joining a Japanese family as long as the couple intends to stay in Japan and be part of either's family?

As I understand it, if a foreign national marries into the family of a japanese person, they're added to the registry entry for the japanese national as basically a footnote, but don't get their own entry until they nationalise.  I don't have first-hand knowledge of what the name rules are in that case without asking some friends who are in that situation.

I do not know if it's possible for the Japanese person to join the foreigner's registry at the time of marriage (though they can always leave their parent's family if desired).  I believe you can't be on a register without being a national.  

However, I would guess that the family registry and the legal minutiae and the culture are all intercorrelated: Certainly the idea that the couple could take either name and join either family goes back a long way in Japan.  Sons-in-law inheriting (and even adopted children, even as adults) has been around for hundreds (thousands?) of years.  

Edited by Ryoshishokunin
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Raishu said:

Just on a quick side note: Regardless whether we know anything about Ikioi's potential desire to become a stablemaster, the fastest way for him to get in charge of a heya would be to take over Kagamiyama-beya in 2023. Same ichimon and apparently an Isenoumi-offspring-stable ... a takeover which would preserve the heya's historic lifeline in a way. And let's be honest: Taking over Kagamiyama is basically a start from scratch with just two remaining riskihi (who might retire alongside their shisho) and one affiliated oyakata. ;-)

The Mongolian Kagamio has been out for about a year; the son, Ryusei, was (surprisingly) near his top rank just 3 basho ago.  If Ikioi were to move in as a coach (with the idea of a takeover when  ex-Tagaryu hits 65), I would expect to see him bring in new recruits to help revive the heya before he assumes control.  Otherwise, why make a two-year stop in a dying heya?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

Sons-in-law inheriting (and even adopted children, even as adults) has been around for hundreds (thousands?) of years.  

So moving back to the original paradigm of rikishi sons in law marrying their stablemaster's daughters, do any foreigner exceptions apply as regards legal names? As things stand now IIRC there has yet to be a handover from a naturalised oyakata to a Japanese one via this process. So far, it will all have been according to the norms of taking the stablemaster's family name as you have illustrated (which means our discussion up till now is entirely hypothetical).

Things could change if a foreign-born oyakata takes over from another foreign-born oyakata in such a way, though. So the question I guess in that scenario is whether the first generation foreign-born oyakata has got his own family entry in the registry by the time the second-generation oyakata marries into his family.

Edited by Seiyashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

The Mongolian Kagamio has been out for about a year; the son, Ryusei, was (surprisingly) near his top rank just 3 basho ago.  If Ikioi were to move in as a coach (with the idea of a takeover when  ex-Tagaryu hits 65), I would expect to see him bring in new recruits to help revive the heya before he assumes control.  Otherwise, why make a two-year stop in a dying heya?

If it's permissible at all, he wouldn't have to move over straight away in order to take it over later. Outside oyakata coming in at the time of succession is rare but does happen, e.g. Kitazakura taking over Shikihide-beya, so Ikioi could be collecting personal deshi at Isenoumi for now and then just take them with him.

I really do wonder what the deal is with Kagamio though. Is he in line to naturalize and "take over" Kagamiyama-beya in a year and a half? He's barely eligible to become oyakata that way with his 21 sekitori appearances (one over the minimum), but isn't otherwise qualified to take a kabu. The same problem applies though as mentioned earlier; if there are zero deshi remaining at the time because Ryusei leaves together with his father, is there even a stable to take over in the Kyokai's eyes?

Edited by Asashosakari
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stupid question: If Ikioi had decided to quit in time, how likely would it have been for him to save Azumazeki-beya from folding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

In any case, it was also a bit odd to make a distinction between puro, lucha and "Western" pro wrestling,

Well, I have only a nodding acquaintance with Mexican wrestling, and didn't know about Japanese pro wrestling until I got into Sumo, but I wanted to include them to display some of the variations of pro wrestling, and I didn't want people to think I was a hick from the US:-P.

Waiting for someone to post "hey, what about Super Slam Wrestling??" in three ... two ... one ...

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Yeah, the origins of professional sumo uncoupled from noble support (late 17th century or so) really weren't all that different from Western-style carny wrestling or renaissance-era theatre troupes, with sumo wrestlers travelling the land in groups to offer up entertainment to the locals.

In any case, it was also a bit odd to make a distinction between puro, lucha and "Western" pro wrestling, since they're all descended from the same common ancestry mix of carny (worked) and catch-as-catch-can (legit) wrestling, and are really still similar enough to be recognizable as the same thing, just in different presentation styles. If it wasn't so, pro wrestlers would have much bigger issues plying their trade in different locations throughout their careers than they do.

Off-topic: just in case anyone wants some good podcast listens on the topic of both pro wrestling history generally, and in particular its introduction into Japan, I recommend listening to a fun couple episodes of The Strenuous Life podcast:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1SxjPv505286riBHaSOMlE?si=AM0DtK3HRfixX_2GEKSz6w&utm_source=copy-link&dl_branch=1

 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0FrgWnVAe3jDyEE0FdArbp?si=Ua2xGpJ4Q1SQ4Add0ReIWg&utm_source=copy-link&dl_branch=1

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Stupid question: If Ikioi had decided to quit in time, how likely would it have been for him to save Azumazeki-beya from folding?

That would have been a cross ichimon situation. Most likely a very lengthy discussion about which ichimon it would belong to would have happened

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 27/06/2021 at 18:22, Seiyashi said:

Things could change if a foreign-born oyakata takes over from another foreign-born oyakata in such a way, though. So the question I guess in that scenario is whether the first generation foreign-born oyakata has got his own family entry in the registry by the time the second-generation oyakata marries into his family.

Once again my understanding is only through actually having to deal with this personally, but I believe that all Japanese nationals are in a family registry somewhere, nationalised or otherwise.  All Japanese nationals also need a family name expressible in Kanji, and so basically naturalisation comes with one free name change if your name isn't already in Kanji for some other reason.

As all Oyakata must be Japanese nationals, by the time someone's coming along to marry the Stablemaster's Daughter said daughter presumably has Japanese nationality, and will be part of the Oyakata's family, who respectively may have jointed his father-in-law's family, etc. etc..  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

All Japanese nationals also need a family name expressible in Kanji, and so basically naturalisation comes with one free name change if your name isn't already in Kanji for some other reason.

Oddly this rule now seems to appear in some abeyance; Kakuryu kept his real name expressed in katakana when he naturalised.

Edited by Seiyashi
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sōkokurai is again another exception. As he was a Chinese citizen, his legal name was his Mongolian name rendered in Chinese characters, but he chose katakana when he became naturalized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what Wikipedia's article on Japanese nationality law says, I don't think it was ever a rule necessarily. You just need a name composed of Japanese kanji and/or kana, which doesn't even have to look ethnically Japanese.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/06/2021 at 16:25, Seiyashi said:

Oddly this rule now seems to appear in some abeyance; Kakuryu kept his real name expressed in katakana when he naturalised.

I wouldn't be looking forward to all the technical glitches he's going to inevitably run into as a result. Either from bureaucracy or from computer systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, here's another stupid question which maybe fits here rather than in its own thread in Off Topic:

Is there any other shikona besides Kakuryu that is also the name of a Transformer? [With the understanding that the kanji are probably completely different, but the English rendering is the same].

I searched the SF archives but didn't find anything.

(To square this with the thread, I haven't found a Transformer named Ikioi.  And I'm not trying to troll here, I was just surprised when a Google of "Kakuryu" brings up 1) Mangaljalavyn Anand and 2) a Triceratops-like Decepticon).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Wow. All of the below is quite stupid.

As we all know Kakuryu is written as 鶴竜 which means crane-dragon, and the triceratops based transformer is Kakuryu because the name of the ceratops dinosaur in real life is 角竜 which a school kid might pronounce as Kakuryu (or maybe because the character is supposed to be stupid) as 角 (Kaku) means corner and is quite common but is actually pronounced Tsunoryu (lit horned dragon). We can forgive the kids though because Tsuno is kun-yomi reading and Ryuu is the on-yomi reading and mixing these two in the same word makes everyone upset and reduces everyone's ikioi.

Somewhat related, when talking about sumo society as a whole we can say 角界 or kakkai which literally means the horned world because back in Edo times people thought the tachiai was like oxen locking horns. According to a book back then Sumo could be written as 角觝 which means Horn Collision, and assures me that its pronounced as Sumo because its ateji and not pronounced Kakutei as the online dictionaries lead you to believe. Also I'm pretty sure this is the only word that uses this way of writing 觝 and the people in Edo times were taking the piss and thought it would be hilarious to make the first part of 觝 include 角. This also leads me to believe that there was a lot of drunken jeering at the wrestlers during Edo-basho which makes being able to sit inside the curtain very important.

Oh and if we mix the kun-yomi and on-yomi pronunciations for 鶴竜 it can become Tsururyu which might cause your tongue to shoot out of your mouth if you try to say it out loud, and is disappointingly close to Tsunoryu and I end this unable to bring this full circle and depleted of my ikioi.

Edited by Tsuchinoninjin
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I'm glad that's cleared up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Wow. All of the below is quite stupid.

As we all know Kakuryu is written as 鶴竜 which means crane-dragon, and the triceratops based transformer is Kakuryu because the name of the ceratops dinosaur in real life is 角竜 which a school kid might pronounce as Kakuryu (or maybe because the character is supposed to be stupid) as 角 (Kaku) means corner and is quite common but is actually pronounced Tsunoryu (lit horned dragon). We can forgive the kids though because Tsuno is kun-yomi reading and Ryuu is the on-yomi reading and mixing these two in the same word makes everyone upset and reduces everyone's ikioi.

Somewhat related, when talking about sumo society as a whole we can say 角界 or kakkai which literally means the horned world because back in Edo times people thought the tachiai was like oxen locking horns. According to a book back then Sumo could be written as 角觝 which means Horn Collision, and assures me that its pronounced as Sumo because its ateji and not pronounced Kakutei as the online dictionaries lead you to believe. Also I'm pretty sure this is the only word that uses this way of writing 觝 and the people in Edo times were taking the piss and thought it would be hilarious to make the first part of 觝 include 角. This also leads me to believe that there was a lot of drunken jeering at the wrestlers during Edo-basho which makes being able to sit inside the curtain very important.

Oh and if we mix the kun-yomi and on-yomi pronunciations for 鶴竜 it can become Tsururyu which might cause your tongue to shoot out of your mouth if you try to say it out loud, and is disappointingly close to Tsunoryu and I end this unable to bring this full circle and depleted of my ikioi.

Many thanks (I think) and also I would add a HaHa if I could.  My references say that Kakuryu is the stupidest Decepticon (comedy relief, I suppose); however, in the main timeline he actually switched sides and joined the Autobots, so there's that.  With his reactive sumo and his compact physique, Kakuryu (Yokozuna 71) is reminiscent of a triceratops, sort of.

Anticipating the ever-nimble mental reactions of SF posters, I will anticipate their follow-up questions by combing the Pokemon Universe for shikona ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Anticipating the ever-nimble mental reactions of SF posters, I will anticipate their follow-up questions by combing the Pokemon Universe for shikona ...

Low hanging fruit: Makuhita and Hariyama.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a moderately-avid Pokemon Go player, I've got about a dozen Hariyama all named for Yokozuna...

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Wow. All of the below is quite stupid.

As we all know Kakuryu is written as 鶴竜 which means crane-dragon, and the triceratops based transformer is Kakuryu because the name of the ceratops dinosaur in real life is 角竜 which a school kid might pronounce as Kakuryu (or maybe because the character is supposed to be stupid) as 角 (Kaku) means corner and is quite common but is actually pronounced Tsunoryu (lit horned dragon). We can forgive the kids though because Tsuno is kun-yomi reading and Ryuu is the on-yomi reading and mixing these two in the same word makes everyone upset and reduces everyone's ikioi.

Somewhat related, when talking about sumo society as a whole we can say 角界 or kakkai which literally means the horned world because back in Edo times people thought the tachiai was like oxen locking horns. According to a book back then Sumo could be written as 角觝 which means Horn Collision, and assures me that its pronounced as Sumo because its ateji and not pronounced Kakutei as the online dictionaries lead you to believe. Also I'm pretty sure this is the only word that uses this way of writing 觝 and the people in Edo times were taking the piss and thought it would be hilarious to make the first part of 觝 include 角. This also leads me to believe that there was a lot of drunken jeering at the wrestlers during Edo-basho which makes being able to sit inside the curtain very important.

Oh and if we mix the kun-yomi and on-yomi pronunciations for 鶴竜 it can become Tsururyu which might cause your tongue to shoot out of your mouth if you try to say it out loud, and is disappointingly close to Tsunoryu and I end this unable to bring this full circle and depleted of my ikioi.

Wow, this post deserves more likes than anyone can give. 

Edit: and to stay on topic, good luck to Ikioi in his future oyakata career. I wonder if anyone is looking for a pet crow? It's generally well behaved and can read the banzuke out loud. 

Edited by dingo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Benevolance said:

As a moderately-avid Pokemon Go player, I've got about a dozen Hariyama all named for Yokozuna...

Pics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/07/2021 at 21:59, Tsuchinoninjin said:

...when talking about sumo society as a whole we can say 角界 or kakkai which literally means the horned world...

Ah yes, the good old 角界... Google Translate still translates it as "horny world". There was a lot of snickering on the forum a few years ago when someone used Google Translate to read a Japanese article on sumo and found them talking about the horny world instead.

On the topic of GT butchering sumo related terms, I think "diarrhea in the sky" takes the cake.

"geri" can mean 'kick' (蹴り) or 'diarrhea' (下痢). Since the original Japanese had it in hiragana, GT didn't have the kanji to help it determine the correct meaning, and hence diarrhea instead of kick.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/07/2021 at 18:38, Adil said:

Ah yes, the good old 角界... Google Translate still translates it as "horny world". There was a lot of snickering on the forum a few years ago when someone used Google Translate to read a Japanese article on sumo and found them talking about the horny world instead.

On the topic of GT butchering sumo related terms, I think "diarrhea in the sky" takes the cake.

"geri" can mean 'kick' (蹴り) or 'diarrhea' (下痢). Since the original Japanese had it in hiragana, GT didn't have the kanji to help it determine the correct meaning, and hence diarrhea instead of kick.  

Not even sure what this is about anymore, but 蹴り without anything preceding it is pronounced "keri" not "geri". It's only when it's attached to another word, such as "nimaigeri," that it becomes "geri".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many years ago, I read an article about a sumo bout that was Google-translated.  I can't remember where I read this, but when it described the rikishi squatted down at the tachiai, it said they "hung low".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now