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Asashosakari

Banzuke for Nagoya 2021

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So, just to clear up some Forum procedure, this is the correct thread to commence crabbing about the banzuke (and GTB screwups), yes?

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19 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Chiyomaru     M13  Ura

The Return of the Pink Panther!

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17 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

As far as I'm concerned the only parts that are pretty far out are how Tobizaru and Chiyoshoma were treated, everything else I might feel compelled to complain about is a direct result of those two placements.

Those two stand out for sure. But over-promoting all three of Kotoeko, Okinoumi, and Chiyotairyu, when only two were necessary, seems out of character, Chiyomaru looks over-promoted to me, and I don't know how they'd justify Ichiyamamoto over Yutakayama, even if they were equal "by the numbers." The rest, as you say, is largely spillover from these choices.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Those two stand out for sure. But over-promoting all three of Kotoeko, Okinoumi, and Chiyotairyu, when only two were necessary, seems out of character, Chiyomaru looks over-promoted to me, and I don't know how they'd justify Ichiyamamoto over Yutakayama, even if they were equal "by the numbers." The rest, as you say, is largely spillover from these choices.

Where else was Chiyomaru supposed to go? That promoted juryo/makushita KKs don't go above incumbent maegashira/juryo KKs is something they've been quite consistent about for years now. I suppose a case could have been made for M13e Tsurugisho, M13w Daiamami, M14e Chiyomaru, but nobody who posted their guesses had anything like that, everybody with Chiyomaru lower than M13e did it at least in part by promoting the juryo guys too much.


Edit: As for Ichiyamamoto, they might have just decided that Yutakayama's J4e was so far removed from the usual promotion zone for 8-7 records that it didn't deserve any high-ranker bonus. If promotion to makuuchi wasn't involved, J8e 10-5 > J4e 8-7 would be pretty much a paint-by-numbers decision. I don't feel there's any wrong way they could have decided this, either outcome was justifiable.

Edited by Asashosakari

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

This is why no one has ever been 100% right (without having foreknowledge).  They always do something unreasonable and inconsistent.  No one will likely ever be able to figure out exactly where the inconsistencies will and won't be.  The best percentage score has been 73/80 and the highest score has been 76/84.

Reminds me of a certain basketball tournament that takes place in March, no one ever gets the brackets right hint hint

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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Where else was Chiyomaru supposed to go?

Appreciate your insights, as always.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That promoted juryo/makushita KKs don't go above incumbent maegashira/juryo KKs is something they've been quite consistent about for years now.

There can be exceptions if there are large KKs near the top of the division compared to 8-7s at the bottom.  I didn't know whether the KKs near the top of the division would qualify for that special treatment; I thought it was close, and certainly on the basis of however many overpromotions there were I felt it was probably right to push Chiyomaru higher to get above Ura, but in the end I thought Ura's record was good enough to justify being ahead of Chiyomaru.  One of the many things I went the wrong way with despite deliberation.  (I didn't consider Tobizaru that high at all; that was a total shocker, though it is correct by the numbers - I just never thought a 5-10 might ever get such a light treatment - and now I have another data point for the future.)

Edited by Gurowake
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"By the numbers" (and I know that doesn't apply as cleanly across divisions) I had Ura 5 full ranks ahead of Chiyomaru.

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2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

There can be exceptions if there are large KKs near the top of the division compared to 8-7s at the bottom.  I didn't know whether the KKs near the top of the division would qualify for that special treatment; I thought it was close, and certainly on the basis of however many overpromotions there were I felt it was probably right to push Chiyomaru higher to get above Ura, but in the end I thought Ura's record was good enough to justify being ahead of Chiyomaru.  One of the many things I went the wrong way with despite deliberation.  (I didn't consider Tobizaru that high at all; that was a total shocker, though it is correct by the numbers - I just never thought a 5-10 might ever get such a light treatment - and now I have another data point for the future.)

Tobizaru's only correct by the numbers in comparison to the KKs that didn't displace him, though. They really broke the numbers within the MK block, particularly Tobizaru vs Kiribayama.

I genuinely believed Chiyomaru > everybody from juryo was going to be the conventional wisdom here after Kotoeko > Takagenji not too long ago and the many similar decisions one division further down the last few years (and arguably also recent promotions into sanyaku), and I was surprised to see guess after guess come into the GTB thread that went the other way. A lot of things in this GTB edition felt potentially controversial to me, but not that. Apologies to @Reonito for the brash wording of my previous post, I overreacted to "Chiyomaru looks over-promoted to me".

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I genuinely believed Chiyomaru > everybody from juryo was going to be the conventional wisdom here after Kotoeko > Takagenji not too long ago

Certainly this basho confirms it.  I still have it in my head that Homasho was promoted up to M7 from Juryo for Natsu 2014 (the first basho I tried making a banzuke for), above even a 9-6 M11, so I hadn't exactly completely integrated how off the quoted movement was from "normal".

edit: I should say, that I probably internalized a general rule of "KK Makuuchi > KK Juryo" after that basho, since I don't have a strong memory of using that heuristic a long time ago, but I guess I didn't realize just how strong of a precedent it was.

Edited by Gurowake

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On 20/06/2021 at 23:34, Yubinhaad said:

Tokiwayama-beya provides a sort of pick-n-mix shikona change, with Wakahiroto Arata becoming Aratakayama Hiroto. The new one is not Arata-ka-yama though, but Ara-taka-yama. And the new given name now matches his real given name, whereas the 'hiroto' in his previous shikona had a different second kanji. Clear as mud?


Now that I know the inspiration behind it, this is a really good shikona. The new Aratakayama was a member of Higashi Osaka Sumo Dojo in his youth, where he was coached by Kimiyasu Chiba, who was once an ozumo rikishi called... you guessed it... Aratakayama. He was a kohai of Tokiwayama-oyakata (ex-Takamisugi) at Futagoyama-beya in the early 1980s, before branching out as a member of Fujishima-beya. He is now president of the Higashi Osaka Sumo Association and also runs a chanko restaurant there called Arata.

The middle kanji of the new Aratakayama's shikona comes from Tokiwayama himself, so it's a nice way to pay tribute to both his childhood sensei and his ozumo shisho.

Aratakayama and Takamisugi in the 1980s.

MMBffybA_o.jpg

 

Meanwhile, the release of the new banzuke marked a double celebration for Otake-beya's Suzaki. He makes his Sandanme debut and so received the traditional McDonald's Logo pair of setta from his shisho. And his hair is now long enough for him to have a chonmage for the first time, so he received the equally-traditional dekopin on the forehead as well.

 

Spoiler

DAaxbWy5_o.jpg

ZcFfWnIw_o.jpg

K7dCbH9b_o.jpg

Bk9Za3mF_o.jpg

 

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On 21/06/2021 at 10:40, Sue said:

The Return of the Pink Panther!

Look out sanyaku, Abi and Ura are ascending once again...

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On 21/06/2021 at 10:34, Seiyashi said:

So, just to clear up some Forum procedure, this is the correct thread to commence crabbing about the banzuke (and GTB screwups), yes?

I remember many years ago, I played in a US Chess Federation tournament and went 1-4. I was then somewhat surprised when my ranking went up. 

Apples and oranges, I know, but can an MK going up in the banzuke be far away?

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44 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

I remember many years ago, I played in a US Chess Federation tournament and went 1-4. I was then somewhat surprised when my ranking went up. 

Apples and oranges, I know, but can an MK going up in the banzuke be far away?

No, happens all the time in Jonokuchi. Even Shonanzakura rose to Jk9e after a streak of 12 0-7 and 0-8, following a 1(!!!)-6*. And it can happen in makuuchi, too. If someone higher on the banzuke has a worse result and there is no one worthy of promotion. At least mathematically it's possible. Or higher guys get kicked out...

 

*some say, a 2-5 will secure him the Ozeki promotion, a strong 3-4 even the rope...

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

I remember many years ago, I played in a US Chess Federation tournament and went 1-4. I was then somewhat surprised when my ranking went up. 

Apples and oranges, I know, but can an MK going up in the banzuke be far away?

It has happened before in recent times. Kokkai and Akiseyama rose two ranks in juryo despite 5-10s because of the mass retirement of the match fixers. It's a fairly unusual circumstance, yes, but not impossible. 

EDIT: Also, IIRC, if you got a 1-4 playing opponents ranked much higher than you, the one win will massively outweigh whatever you lose from your losses. 

Edited by Seiyashi
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Shouldn't we have had some pics of Wakatakakage and Meisei pointing at the banzuke and smiling? Has this noble tradition fallen to COVID?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Shouldn't we have had some pics of Wakatakakage and Meisei pointing at the banzuke and smiling? Has this noble tradition fallen to COVID?

Pinched from the latest John Gunning article I believe, but let me double check. 

Edit: confirmed - https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2021/06/23/sumo/nagoya-basho-banzuke/

np_file_94762.jpeg

Edited by Tochinofuji
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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Shouldn't we have had some pics of Wakatakakage and Meisei pointing at the banzuke and smiling? Has this noble tradition fallen to COVID?

Tatsunami on the other hand seems to be busy with their move both to Nagoya and to Tokyo (their actual heya premises are shifting from Ibaraki to Tokyo, to the old Chiganoura place iirc). Meisei's picture will probably have to wait until they are settled in Nagoya. 

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7 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Shouldn't we have had some pics of Wakatakakage and Meisei pointing at the banzuke and smiling? Has this noble tradition fallen to COVID?

I believe it may be due to Akinomaki's current kyujo, which he declared somewhere hereabouts recently.

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On 21/06/2021 at 19:09, Asashosakari said:

That promoted juryo/makushita KKs don't go above incumbent maegashira/juryo KKs is something they've been quite consistent about for years now.

If I would have known this before I would have won GTB this time (Scratchingchin...)

But I just noticed that.... (Anidea...)

Thank you,

Pitinosato

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On 21/06/2021 at 00:34, Yubinhaad said:

One rikishi changes just the given name of his shikona, Shohoryu replaces Hikaru with his real given name, Shota.  (For @Doitsuyama, Hikaru was the given name from the start of his career.)

Ms15e Shohoryu Hikaru (光) > Shohoryu Shota (将太)

 

Thanks for all the details, they are in the DB now. Just one question, the kanji of "Sho" here is different from his real given name, so I guess I want to make sure if this is correct?

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12 minutes ago, Doitsuyama said:

Thanks for all the details, they are in the DB now. Just one question, the kanji of "Sho" here is different from his real given name, so I guess I want to make sure if this is correct?


Not sure what you mean, the kanji are the same aren't they? His Kyokai profile shows:

将豊竜 将太 / 吉田 将太


Thanks for updating the data, always appreciated. (Signofapproval...)

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