RabidJohn

Non-Ozeki/Mitakeumi discussion (split from Trivia bits)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

Also, his db portrait is extremely badass.  Considering his prime years (1969-1972), he could have been the Japanese version of Shaft: "They say this cat Hasegawa is a mean mother ... (Shut Your Mouth!) ... but I'm talkin' bout' Hasegawa!"

Hasegawa sure wasn't a very big guy.  182cm (6 ft tall) and only 120 kg (264 lbs).  And yes, he DOES look pretty badass!  I would love to see him transported through time to today & see how he would perform against today's rikishi.

Edited by sumojoann

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Posted (edited)

I don't recall ever seeing Hasegawa in an uninteresting match.  He always went full out.  He was my #2 guy, right behind Wajima

Edited by Asojima
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Asojima said:

I don't recall ever seeing Hasegawa in an uninteresting match.  He always went full out.  He was my #2 guy, right behind Wajima

Asojima is right!  He always gave his all.  Here is a Youtube video from Aki 1965, Hasegawa vs Yokozuna Tochinoumi.  He got the first kinboshi of his career in this bout (he wasn't yet a Sekiwake).  Hasegawa won a Gino-sho at this basho.  (There is no sound).  One comment said that Hasegawa was ranked in Sanyaku for 30 basho, a solid 5 years, during his career.  He certainly was one of the best rikishi to never reach Ozeki rank.

 

Edited by sumojoann
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Posted (edited)

Here is another great bout, this time between Hasegawa and Maegashira 1 Takanohana Toshiaki at Haru 1972.  Hasegawa was a Sekiwake by then and he won the Yusho with a 12-3 score, beating Kaiketsu in a playoff (per a comment).  This was approaching the end of Hasegawa's career (intai May 1976).  The commenter went on to say that Takanohana scored 10-5 and moved into Sanyaku. 

 

Edited by sumojoann
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Posted (edited)

This is an amazing battle between Hasegawa when he was a Komusubi vs Yokozuna Kashiwado at the Nagoya basho 1967.  Hasegawa defeated Kashiwado in spectacular fashion.  The video description is in French, and if I understand it correctly, Hasegawa was awarded the Shukun-sho.  I didn't think Komusubi rank was eligible for Sansho.  Did the rules change since 1967?  The more I read about Hasegawa and watch the few Youtube videos I've tracked down of his bouts, the more perplexed I am as to why he never achieved the rank of Ozeki.  His record speaks for itself.  He looks more "Ozeki-ish" than some of the recent Ozeki that have come and gone.

 

Edited by sumojoann
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9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Where the heck am I going to find a man named Paul??

Here: @Fujisan

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This is the last Hasegawa video I could find on Youtube but I decided to include it even though it's only a 7-second bout!  It's exciting to watch Sekiwake Hasegawa defeat Ozeki Daikirin at the 1971 Kyushi basho.  I'm a fan of his now.  He deserved to be an Ozeki. 

 

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27 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

This is an amazing battle between Hasegawa when he was a Komusubi vs Yokozuna Kashiwado at the Nagoya basho 1967.  Hasegawa defeated Kashiwado in spectacular fashion.  The video description is in French, and if I understand it correctly, Hasegawa was awarded the Shukun-sho.  I didn't think Komusubi rank was eligible for Sansho.  Did the rules change since 1967? 

 

Sanyaku have been able to win sansho. In fact the first gino-sho when they started it in 1948 according to DB was awarded to a komusubi

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25 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

I didn't think Komusubi rank was eligible for Sansho. 

Sansho are OK, happens all the time tbh; it's kinboshi that you might be thinking of.

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2 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Sansho are OK, happens all the time tbh; it's kinboshi that you might be thinking of.

Yes, it WAS kinboshi I was thinking of.  Thanks! 

For those like me who didn't understand why Hasegawa never achieved Ozeki rank, I found part of the answer on wikipedia.  He won the Yusho in March 1972 but there were already 4 Ozeki.  That's the reason.  Just bad luck.  And then he got only 8 wins at the next basho.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasegawa_Katsutoshi

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9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Am I reading the kabu list correctly -- did Hasegawa take over the Hidenoyama kabu, coach at Sadogatake, and pass it on to Kotoshogiku?

I really don't really understand how the kabu system works and I would be grateful if anyone could explain what happened to the Hidenoyama stock from 2009 (when Hasegawa reached mandatory retirement age) to 2013, when Kotoshogiku assumed ownership. It looks as though Hasegawa continued to own the kabu for four years after his retirement, but the extension period did not apply until 2014 (according to wp).

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

For those like me who didn't understand why Hasegawa never achieved Ozeki rank, I found part of the answer on wikipedia.  He won the Yusho in March 1972 but there were already 4 Ozeki.  That's the reason.  Just bad luck.

There were only 3 Ozeki on the next banzuke, so that couldn't have been a factor. I was tempted to say a run of just 30 wins in three basho simply hasn't been deemed worthy in those days, but then there was Kaiketsu...

Edit: By the way, I hadn't realized "da Man" Kitanofuji's claim for Ozeki was so weak.

Edited by Jakusotsu

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25 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

There were only 3 Ozeki on the next banzuke, so that couldn't have been a factor. I was tempted to say a run of just 30 wins in three basho simply hasn't been deemed worthy in those days, but then there was Kaiketsu...

Edit: By the way, I hadn't realized "da Man" Kitanofuji's claim for Ozeki was so weak.

Those are weird. I suppose in both cases there was only one Ozeki on the banzuke (disregarding Yokozunas), and so the banzuke committee wanted to have a second Ozeki, and so promoted whoever with below the usual requirements.

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3 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I really don't really understand how the kabu system works and I would be grateful if anyone could explain what happened to the Hidenoyama stock from 2009 (when Hasegawa reached mandatory retirement age) to 2013, when Kotoshogiku assumed ownership. It looks as though Hasegawa continued to own the kabu for four years after his retirement, but the extension period did not apply until 2014 (according to wp).

Wasn't it being used by Kotonishiki in the meantime?

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3 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I really don't really understand how the kabu system works and I would be grateful if anyone could explain what happened to the Hidenoyama stock from 2009 (when Hasegawa reached mandatory retirement age) to 2013, when Kotoshogiku assumed ownership. It looks as though Hasegawa continued to own the kabu for four years after his retirement, but the extension period did not apply until 2014 (according to wp).

Kotonishiki used it for a while, before Tenkaiho and then finally Kotoshogiku (who now owns it). But most importantly, one doesn't need this extension to own a kabu post-retirement. Some times the owner is even deceased, but he is listed as the owner because it still belongs to his estate.

It happened to late Ushiomaru (Azumazeki) a few years ago. He passed away in December 2019, but was listed as the owner until the takeover by Takamisakari (previously Furiwake), early in the following year.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

There were only 3 Ozeki on the next banzuke, so that couldn't have been a factor. I was tempted to say a run of just 30 wins in three basho simply hasn't been deemed worthy in those days, but then there was Kaiketsu...

Edit: By the way, I hadn't realized "da Man" Kitanofuji's claim for Ozeki was so weak.

The kadoban regulations were revised in 1969, I'm fairly sure that coincided with the promotion expectations getting reworked to be tougher. Promotions with 30 or fewer wins weren't unusual before, but afterwards it's been 31+ for everyone bar Kaiketsu (who got to go up at a time with only two yokozuna and one ozeki, the lowest top-ranker total in 40 years).

In any case, there were 5 ozeki several times before 1972, so the idea that Hasegawa didn't get promoted because they wanted to avoid that is complete conjecture as far as I'm concerned. And as you indicated, one of the existing four was getting demoted anyway. (That one, Maenoyama, actually got sort of forced into demotion because he withdrew at 6-6 while kadoban as it was widely regarded that fellow ozeki Kotozakura had avoided fighting hard against him on Day 12 to help him keep the rank.)


Edit: The Japanese Wikipedia article has a rather more nuanced description, giving the prevailing view of the time as one of a very lackluster ozeki corps and general criticism of the era's ozeki promotions as 粗製乱造 "churning out inferior goods", with a would-be Hasegawa promotion seen as just another one, so it didn't happen.

Edited by Asashosakari
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7 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:
16 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Am I reading the kabu list correctly -- did Hasegawa take over the Hidenoyama kabu, coach at Sadogatake, and pass it on to Kotoshogiku?

I really don't really understand how the kabu system works and I would be grateful if anyone could explain what happened to the Hidenoyama stock from 2009 (when Hasegawa reached mandatory retirement age) to 2013, when Kotoshogiku assumed ownership. It looks as though Hasegawa continued to own the kabu for four years after his retirement, but the extension period did not apply until 2014 (according to wp).


As far as I know Hidenoyama was always intended for then-Ozeki Kotomitsuki, and there were rumours that he had already put down a significant wedge of money for it. Unfortunately for him the baseball gambling scandal intervened and he was forced out.

His legal efforts for reinstatement went on for a few years, so perhaps the ownership of Hidenoyama simply had to be left with ex-Hasegawa until all the dust had settled (and for the greater good everyone just looked the other way and ignored the three-year limit for a retired oyakata to hold his share). Or maybe ex-Kotomitsuki was officially considered (but never announced) as the owner at the time of his intai, and when his legal efforts ended Kotoshogiku found himself in pole position to acquire the share three years later. I doubt we'll ever get any exact dates or information about that.

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4 hours ago, shumitto said:

It happened to late Ushiomaru (Azumazeki) a few years ago. He passed away in December 2019, but was listed as the owner until the takeover by Takamisakari (previously Furiwake), early in the following year.

Gentlemen, thank you for attending the meeting. Six of us are present in person,  three honoured colleagues will be joining us on zoom and our most revered elder Ushiomaru will be speaking to us through a medium. Any objections?

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Yes. And if he fails to appear we will send a yobidashi to summon him.

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Takanosho is a fantasy Ozeki from his second crack at Makuuchi: 9 basho, but he's kadoban with a 5-10 at S1W.

I am surprised to see that he started storming through the top ranks after a 9 1/2 year career.

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On 14/06/2021 at 09:58, RabidJohn said:

I find it almost impossible to predict how 1 rikishi is going to fare against another going by their records against a 3rd. 
Mitakeumi, for example, dominates Tamawashi in terms of H2H, but Kaisei dominates Mitakeumi. So, one might reasonably expect Kaisei to stomp all over Tamawashi, but one would be wrong. 11-10 in favour of Tamawashi...

Sorry for going all the way back to the quasi-OP here, I wonder if the better way to look at these types of things is in terms of the style of the three guys you're looking at. ie, Kaisei is a pretty extreme mawashi guy and, kotenage excepted, Tamawashi is a pretty extreme oshi guy. The career data will tell a different story for Mitakeumi, but he started as an oshi guy and has added a lot of belt ability over his top division career. Unlike both of the other guys in this example, these days he seems to tailor his attack to the type of opponent he's facing. It's pretty clear what kind of attack both Tamawashi and Kaisei will take to Mitakeumi, but Mitakeumi may simply select the wrong approach to Kaisei and rikishi like him.

I think if you look at the body of work of a rikishi against a group of rikishi with consistently similar styles it becomes easier to perhaps predict how they might perform vs a third party. In Mitakeumi's case, with the exception of Okinoumi (4-4), he has a lot of bad results across the board against extreme yotsu guys: 1-7 Kaisei, 1-5 Ryuden, 2-5 Harumafuji, 6-8 Tochinoshin you could argue is as good as it is because of the familiarity they have with each other from keiko, and if you dig into the 6-18 against Takayasu, Takayasu (similarly able to take both approaches) has a couple oshidashi wins but there are a lot of throws in there - on data alone you'd say that between the two "all rounders," Takayasu makes better choices on his approach to handling Mitakeumi. I'd argue the only really great record Mitakeumi has against someone who you'd class as "extreme yotsu" would be Kotoshogiku (11-4) who was well past his best and very injured by the time they started matching up regularly. Meanwhile he does very well against extreme thrusters and is kind of middle of the road against grappling types. I think using that is more predictive, but to @RabidJohn's point, this doesn't mean that one can simply use Mitakeumi as a benchmark for how any extreme thruster (e.g. Tamawashi) will handle an extreme mawashi (e.g. Kaisei) guy.

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I remember Hasegawa-Kitanofuji matches as a kid where the two of them would have these *great* niramiai at jikan-mae. Hasegawa had that ice-cold look. Would love to hear Kitanofuji reminisce about those torikumi.

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3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Takanosho is a fantasy Ozeki from his second crack at Makuuchi: 9 basho, but he's kadoban with a 5-10 at S1W.

I am surprised to see that he started storming through the top ranks after a 9 1/2 year career.

IIRC that was after Takakeisho joined Tokiwayama. Really shows the benefit of having a high level training partner. 

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:
4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Takanosho is a fantasy Ozeki from his second crack at Makuuchi: 9 basho, but he's kadoban with a 5-10 at S1W.

I am surprised to see that he started storming through the top ranks after a 9 1/2 year career.

IIRC that was after Takakeisho joined Tokiwayama. Really shows the benefit of having a high level training partner. 

Takanosho started at 15, so it's not surprising that it took him a decade to reach the top. He's had plenty of time to build up his body and hone his skills.  Meisei started at around the same time at the same age and is about to break into sanyaku for the first time.  OTOH Wakatakage, who is from the same generation, took a completely different route but has arrived at the same destination at the same time, which suggests to me that it's just a case of athletes reaching their peak in their mid 20's. (that's 5 "same"s in 3 sentences: sorry)

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