The difference between a sekitori and a non-sekitori

[Seiyashi 3,527]

25 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Remember Fat Bastard in Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me?

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Are those sagari, or plaited unmentionables? 

[Seiyashi 3,527]

16 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

You are correct about the symbology of white in Japanese culture, and you just don't see rikishi in pure white mawashi. Even training mawashi aren't pure white; they vary from a creamy off-white to almost the same colour as the rice bails around the dohyo.

But you do see white on the dohyo, so I'm uncertain about 'taboo'. 
The tsuna is white for one, and the gyoji wear white during the dohyo matsuri.

So this is the part I'm unclear about - white is also the Shinto colour of ritual purity, which is why it turns up in those contexts. White associated with death tends to be more of a Buddhist thing, considering how strongly Buddhism seems to be associated with funerals in Japan rather than Shintoism. So the question is, why then is white taboo for mawashi in a sport which draws almost entirely from Shintoism?

The alternate explanation is that it is taboo not because of death, but because only yokozuna have earned the privilege to be demarcated as sacred with the tsuna. As for why then yokozuna aren't also allowed white, my pure speculative guess is that it would also be odd for a white mawashi to be dirtied during a bout as it would symbolically indicate defilement.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

White is, of course, the colour of victory in sumo: 白星.

[Churaumi 688]

7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

.........................

Are those sagari, or plaited unmentionables? 

We need a "yuck" response.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

7 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

You are correct about the symbology of white in Japanese culture, and you just don't see rikishi in pure white mawashi. Even training mawashi aren't pure white; they vary from a creamy off-white to almost the same colour as the rice bails around the dohyo.

But you do see white on the dohyo, so I'm uncertain about 'taboo'. 
The tsuna is white for one, and the gyoji wear white during the dohyo matsuri.

Seeing some of the training mawashi up close I would bet a lot of them started off much whiter than they currently look if you get my drift.

[RabidJohn 1,257]

9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

The alternate explanation is that it is taboo not because of death, but because only yokozuna have earned the privilege to be demarcated as sacred with the tsuna. As for why then yokozuna aren't also allowed white, my pure speculative guess is that it would also be odd for a white mawashi to be dirtied during a bout as it would symbolically indicate defilement.

You might be on to something there. I remembered Chiyonofuji's kanreki dohyo iri: 九重親方（第58代横綱 千代の富士(Chiyonofuji)）還暦土俵入り！美しい四股は健在！（2015年5月31日 九重親方の還暦を祝う会） - YouTube

The base colour of the kesho mawashi set being worn here is white.

[Seiyashi 3,527]

2 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

You might be on to something there. I remembered Chiyonofuji's kanreki dohyo iri: 九重親方（第58代横綱 千代の富士(Chiyonofuji)）還暦土俵入り！美しい四股は健在！（2015年5月31日 九重親方の還暦を祝う会） - YouTube

The base colour of the kesho mawashi set being worn here is white.

Hmm, yeah, but that alone doesn't wash, does it? Now that I think about it, there must be some other rikishi walking around with white or predominantly white keshomawashi.

So that doesn't get us any closer to why it's specifically white shimekomi that's a no go, but everything else is apparently fair game!

Edited June 12, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Morningstar 115]

12 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

So this is the part I'm unclear about - white is also the Shinto colour of ritual purity, which is why it turns up in those contexts. White associated with death tends to be more of a Buddhist thing, considering how strongly Buddhism seems to be associated with funerals in Japan rather than Shintoism. So the question is, why then is white taboo for mawashi in a sport which draws almost entirely from Shintoism?

The alternate explanation is that it is taboo not because of death, but because only yokozuna have earned the privilege to be demarcated as sacred with the tsuna. As for why then yokozuna aren't also allowed white, my pure speculative guess is that it would also be odd for a white mawashi to be dirtied during a bout as it would symbolically indicate defilement.

Shintoism's forced split from Buddhism is relatively recent. Prior to the late 1800's they were the same religion. And, both still retain numerous connections. So there is no reason that they can not be Buddhist origin taboos. 

[ViscountessNivlac 24]

On 12/06/2021 at 07:45, Seiyashi said:

so the dirtier your belt gets the more time you've clocked doing training. I can see the same logic being applied to mawashi, although the scrubbing the training mawashi get seem enough to keep the mawashi from getting too dark despite getting nearer dirt more often than other martial arts.)

My observation has been that black cotton mawashi seem to lighten up as they’re used - look at a brand new recruit versus somebody who’s spent a decade in Sandanme.

[Churaumi 688]

Some stables interchange Masashi, from what I've heard. They wash them, of course. Just after laundry day they grab one from the stack and strap up until next laundry day.

[WAKATAKE 2,381]

3 hours ago, Churaumi said:

Some stables interchange Masashi, from what I've heard. They wash them, of course. Just after laundry day they grab one from the stack and strap up until next laundry day.

I've heard quite the opposite that they don't wash the mawashi. Only time might be if the stablemaster has died or if they're moving but not sure.

[Shinobi Steve 146]

1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

I've heard quite the opposite that they don't wash the mawashi. Only time might be if the stablemaster has died or if they're moving but not sure.

I think that might be an older custom that's, rightfully, gone away. Remember last summer when Terasawa's mawashi (complete with dead rabbit bones) was stolen? We had a lively discussion on the forum about washing to mawashi with a deck mop and then hanging them to dry in the sun. 

[Seiyashi 3,527]

16 minutes ago, Shinobi Steve said:

1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

I've heard quite the opposite that they don't wash the mawashi. Only time might be if the stablemaster has died or if they're moving but not sure.

I think that might be an older custom that's, rightfully, gone away. Remember last summer when Terasawa's mawashi (complete with dead rabbit bones) was stolen? We had a lively discussion on the forum about washing to mawashi with a deck mop and then hanging them to dry in the sun. 

While I think they definitely clean the mawashi, the question is whether your definition of wash involves water or not. 

[RabidJohn 1,257]

6 hours ago, Churaumi said:

Some stables interchange Masashi, from what I've heard. They wash them, of course. Just after laundry day they grab one from the stack and strap up until next laundry day.

That may be the case at some stables, I don't know, but it can't have been the case at Terasawa's heya. 
The fact that his mawashi was hanging out to air with those bones still within it casts doubt on the notion of 'washing', and there's a clear implication that he and his heya-mates knew which mawashi was his.

[Churaumi 688]

I've heard the no-washing thing too. I totally believe some might do that. There are many sports traditions here regarding not washing gear. The American football team I played on in school never washed the shirts we wore under our pads. Didn't help much, we only won 2 games. 

[Yamanashi 3,050]

9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

While I think they definitely clean the mawashi, the question is whether your definition of wash involves water or not. 

I'm pretty sure I've seen photos and videos taken during jungyo of lower-level guys out behind a motel hosing down mawashi and leaving them stretched out in their 30-foot glory.  But maybe not.

[RabidJohn 1,257]

Leaving them out to air in sunlight once in a while is probably all they need. They might be a bit grubby and salt encrusted (they certainly tend to look that way), but bacteria, viruses and fungi fifind it very difficult to live in dry mediums that get a regular dose of UV radiation.

Edited June 14, 2021 by RabidJohn

[Benihana 1,750]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Leaving them out to air in sunlight once in a while is probably all they need. They might be a bit grubby and salt encrusted (they certainly tend to look that way), but bacteria, viruses and fungi fifind it very difficult to live in dry mediums that get a regular dose of UV radiation.

Yes, but there are at least traces of substances, you just can't avoid in any undergarment. *cough*dingleberries*cough*

[Kintamayama 41,287]

2 hours ago, Benihana said:

Yes, but there are at least traces of substances, you just can't avoid in any undergarment. *cough*dingleberries*cough*

Skid marks? 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

But driving isn't allowed...

[Benihana 1,750]

26 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Skid marks? 

Not quite.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dingle-berry

[Kaminariyuki 487]

If I'd gone into sumo, I'd have needed a nice soft mawashi, and it would have to be laundered every couple of days...

[Yamanashi 3,050]

Here's an article on tachiai.org about mawashi.  Herouth says there's no water involved with cleaning: when it gets too groaty, they buy another one from the NSK [like a "company town"].

https://tachiai.org/2020/08/29/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-mawashi/