Kintamayama

Nagoya Basho 2021

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19 minutes ago, Dapeng said:
58 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

"Ruthless" generally means more than just a real drive to win.  It means to win at all costs.  To let nothing stand in the way.  NOTHING!!  "Fierce" to me is more like a wild animal.  One that is ferocious, menacing and intense.  Ruthless is worse than fierce, unless you're dealing with a wild animal that wants to tear you limb from limb!  If I were to use one word to describe Hakuho's method of fighting on senshuraku, it would have to be ruthless.  I can't say that for Terunofuji in that bout, but he has shown that he can be ruthless when fighting other rikishi.

Sumo is a combat sport with strict rules. No one is allowed to fight ruthlessly, i.e., disregarding rules. A rikishi is supposed to fight to win with all he has that are within the limits of rules. No one is allowed to mukiryoku. 

You could argue that Hakuho disregarded the implicit expectations on the quality and dignity of his sumo to win at all costs without actually fouling. I probably took the "win at all costs" bit too far, but you get the idea that it's doing whatever is permitted to win, optics be damned.

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5 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Sumo is a combat sport with strict rules. No one is allowed to fight ruthlessly, i.e., disregarding rules. A rikishi is supposed to fight to win with all he has that are within the limits of rules. No one is allowed to mukiryoku. 

Yes, there are rules.  However, ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean to disregard rules.  It has other more common meanings.  Hakuho used a very violent kachiage.  The kachiage is within the rules.  However, Hakuho said himself that he gave it his all.  His went beyond the "normal" range of attack and put it in the violent category.  Yet in sumo, there is no distinction between run-of-the-mill kachiage and violent kachiage.  They are both within the rules.  One can argue that it's unsportsmanlike to subject Teru to such a violent kachiage BUT it's not against the rules.  Therefore, one can still say he was violent yet legal according to the rules of sumo.  That's just one example.  In fact, when I look up "ruthless" in my Webster's New World Dictionary, it says the definition is "without pity or compassion".  If you look online, you will also see other definitions like "cruel, remorseless, merciless".  Actually, I haven't seen a dictionary definition saying it means "disregarding rules".  Unfortunately, the rules of sumo don't make distinctions as to the DEGREE of violence, cruelty, remorselessness or mercilessness that's allowed.

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23 hours ago, neonbelly said:

Some more organized but still scattered thoughts on the Haku-hoopla, note that this is more about his post-bout flex and roar and not about elbows or slaps:

 

That was very well stated. Great points!

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4 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Yes, there are rules.  However, ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean to disregard rules.  It has other more common meanings.  Hakuho used a very violent kachiage.  The kachiage is within the rules.  However, Hakuho said himself that he gave it his all.  His went beyond the "normal" range of attack and put it in the violent category.  Yet in sumo, there is no distinction between run-of-the-mill kachiage and violent kachiage.  They are both within the rules.  One can argue that it's unsportsmanlike to subject Teru to such a violent kachiage BUT it's not against the rules.  Therefore, one can still say he was violent yet legal according to the rules of sumo.  That's just one example.  In fact, when I look up "ruthless" in my Webster's New World Dictionary, it says the definition is "without pity or compassion".  If you look online, you will also see other definitions like "cruel, remorseless, merciless".  Actually, I haven't seen a dictionary definition saying it means "disregarding rules".  Unfortunately, the rules of sumo don't make distinctions as to the DEGREE of violence, cruelty, remorselessness or mercilessness that's allowed.

Combat sports is different from other sports. Even within a combat sport, e.g. sumo, the rules are not the same between professional sumo (the kind of sumo we are talking about) and amateur sumo. For the amateur sumo, harite is forbidden. (I'm not sure whether kachiage is allowed in amateur sumo) 

I agree that certain dangerous skills should not be used against a lesser opponent. But Teru is actually has more physical strength than Haku. I don't see it's improper for Haku to use kachage against Teru. In fact, Haku's kotenage is even more dangerous than his initial kachiage and harite. After the bout, everyone can see that Teru was in pain with his right arm. 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, nelimw said:

That was very well stated. Great points!

Still, there's no rule forbidding the expression of emotion after a bout. I don't think he over-expressed his emotion. 

For other sports, expression of emotion after a game is OK, but also should not go too far. 

Edited by Dapeng
over-expressed

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6 hours ago, sumojoann said:

Yes, she is an actual human person.  Watch this video!!  She comes down the stairs at 0:35.  At 2:25, she takes a small pillow out of her shopping bag and discreetly tucks it under herself.  That must be what people refer to as a "seiza pillow" (I guess).

 

Isn't that your favorite yobidashi singing, as well? The Posture Princess seems to really have some cult following now. Maybe she will become more popular than sumo.

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3 hours ago, sumojoann said:

Fierceness and ruthlessness have separate but related meanings, and I think both apply to Hakuho and Terunofuji and maybe to a lesser extent to the other Mongolians.  Fierceness means menacingly wild, savage, hostile, violent in force or intensity.  Ruthlessness means without pity, compassion, cruel, merciless or remorseless.  I think Hakuho has these characteristics more than Terunofuji and that's partly why he lost the bout with Hakuho.

As often happens, the word ruth hasn't survived in English, but it's opposite ruthless has.  Because of that, it's hard to resurrect the meaning.  But a hint is that the (slightly more common) word rue comes from the same root, and means "regret".  Meanings change, but to me a ruthless person acts without any regrets.  That may seem more neutral than it's current usage of pitiless.

Are Mongolian rikishi on average more ruthless?  Hard to say; I don't remember any who went out of their way to help people up, etc., like Kaisei (but he's a foreigner!)  And I haven't felt even an atom's worth of camaraderie between two Mongolians when they oppose each other on the dohyo, so it's not "racism."

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3 hours ago, sumojoann said:

"Ruthless" generally means more than just a real drive to win. 

My friend had a girl friend- Ruth Gordon. She left him. He is now ruthless. Fierce Brosnan is the 5th James bond. Don't say I didn't warn you.

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1 hour ago, Dapeng said:

Combat sports is different from other sports. Even within a combat sport, e.g. sumo, the rules are not the same between professional sumo (the kind of sumo we are talking about) and amateur sumo. For the amateur sumo, harite is forbidden. (I'm not sure whether kachiage is allowed in amateur sumo) 

I agree that certain dangerous skills should not be used against a lesser opponent. But Teru is actually has more physical strength than Haku. I don't see it's improper for Haku to use kachage against Teru. In fact, Haku's kotenage is even more dangerous than his initial kachiage and harite. After the bout, everyone can see that Teru was in pain with his right arm. 

Actually, I never stated that certain dangerous skills should not be used against a lesser opponent.  First, one must define what constitutes a "lesser opponent".  But that's not the point, anyway.  A kachiage as violent as Hakuho used is repugnant, no matter who he used it against.  As Yamanashi stated so well,  "Hakuho disregarded the implicit expectations on the quality and dignity of his sumo to win at all costs without actually fouling".  Whether or  not Teru is stronger than Hakuho is beside the point.  I for one believe he is but that is no excuse for the violence Hakuho inflicted on him.  Hakuho is very clever, skilled and tricky.  He knows how to play the game on multiple levels yet still stay within the rules.  You will never see him boxing an opponent's ears or poking him in the eyes.  Hakuho seemed refreshed the morning after his bout with Teru.  Apparently he slept well.  I wonder how well Teru slept after that legal beating.  A legal brawl borne of desperation to win.

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1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

As often happens, the word ruth hasn't survived in English, but it's opposite ruthless has.  Because of that, it's hard to resurrect the meaning.  But a hint is that the (slightly more common) word rue comes from the same root, and means "regret".  Meanings change, but to me a ruthless person acts without any regrets.  That may seem more neutral than it's current usage of pitiless.

Are Mongolian rikishi on average more ruthless?  Hard to say; I don't remember any who went out of their way to help people up, etc., like Kaisei (but he's a foreigner!)  And I haven't felt even an atom's worth of camaraderie between two Mongolians when they oppose each other on the dohyo, so it's not "racism."

To me, a ruthless person acts without regard for the consequences of his/her actions.  Consequences such as the damage to Teru's elbow after that particularly violent kotenage.  Or the ugly harite he inflicted.  A legally sanctioned brawl.

I agree that the root of ruthless is rue, however as we know, it's common linguistically for the meaning of words to change for a variety of reasons.  Current definitions of ruthless in a number of dictionaries point to this.  I have yet to see regret as a definition of ruthless.

**** As a side note, my linguistics professor at UCLA had studied Quechua extensively.  Quechua is the language of the largest population of indigenous people in Peru.  (We students were NOT studying Quechua).  Anyway, he would often say, "Well, as we ALL KNOW, in Quechua," (pause) ...... and then he'd let his voice trail off.  It was always good for a laugh & I haven't forgotten this over 50 years later. ****

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56 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

My friend had a girl friend- Ruth Gordon. She left him. He is now ruthless. Fierce Brosnan is the 5th James bond. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I sure wish I had some "likes" left for today.  I'd give you 2, one for each groaner!!  Those are hilarious! lol

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2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

Are Mongolian rikishi on average more ruthless?  Hard to say; I don't remember any who went out of their way to help people up, etc.

Ichinojo on Takakeisho a couple of weeks ago. But then again this might explain why Ichinojo is not quite the yokozuna some pundits predicted he'd be at this point.

That reminds me of a discussion @Tigerboy1966 had back to Hatsu, when Akiseyama was known backstage to have a broken jaw and the likes of Chiyoshoma and Ishiura went for the slap across the face - two good examples of ruthlessness / fierceness.

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Posted (edited)

To Hakuho's credit, his apparent desire to use every part of the sumo buffalo has taught me a lot about sumo.

I saw him charge at Tochiozan between the salt throws because (supposedly) he felt the breathing matched and it is, in fact, permissible for the rikishi to start any time, regardless of where they are in the ritual.

Also credit to Murray Johnson, the living bloody legend, immediately recognizing it as "ti-kan-mai", which I don't know how to spell because it's apparently too obscure to google, even.

Edited by neonbelly

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6 hours ago, sumojoann said:

Araiwa (Cal Martin), the American former rikishi who has posted here on SF, was in the same heya as Wajima.  Araiwa hated Wajima but it was partly because Wajima was better at sumo than he was and Waima made it look easy.  However, Araiwa said that Wajima whined about every little thing.  I can't recall the details but one time it was about his own finger.  I think he had a small cut on it and made a big deal about it which disgusted Araiwa.

Obviously, I have a different perspective than Araiwa, but I can honestly say I never missed watching a Makuuchi bout during my time in Japan. (I even quit playing little league baseball because practice was held between 4-6 pm and I refused to miss sumo.) I stand by my opinion, but it's just that: my opinion.  

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3 hours ago, sumojoann said:

A kachiage as violent as Hakuho used is repugnant, no matter who he used it against. 

I don't think kachiage or harite are brutal and dangerous, since no one was injured by kachiage or harite so much that he had to withdraw the next day. Concussion did happen, but I don't remember anyone withdraw the next day.

On the other hand, many were badly injured by kotenage (arm throw) and other more dangerous skills. Takakeisho injured his neck and he had to sit out a basho, just by a moderate tachiai head to head collision. Kisenosate was pushed out and suffered a career-ending injury. Not long ago a rikishi was injured by a nage (throw) and was paralyzed ! 

 

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1 hour ago, neonbelly said:

To Hakuho's credit, his apparent desire to use every part of the sumo buffalo has taught me a lot about sumo.

I saw him charge at Tochiozan between the salt throws because (supposedly) he felt the breathing matched and it is, in fact, permissible for the rikishi to start any time, regardless of where they are in the ritual.

Also credit to Murray Johnson, the living bloody legend, immediately recognizing it as "ti-kan-mai", which I don't know how to spell because it's apparently too obscure to google, even.

Called a jikan-mae, jikan (時間) being "time" and mae (前) meaning "before". You'll note that when the assorted bows are done, the gyouji will say "jikan desu" or "it's time", signaling it's time to go for real. So a jikan-mae is starting the match ahead of the appointed time.

I feel like we get one every few years, and I remember being absolutely floored the first time I saw one (I feel like it was Ama/Harumafuji against someone, but would need to dig back through some posts).

Also, Murray Johnson is an absolute hero. 

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1 minute ago, Tochinofuji said:

Called a jikan-mae, jikan (時間) being "time" and mae (前) meaning "before". You'll note that when the assorted bows are done, the gyouji will say "jikan desu" or "it's time", signaling it's time to go for real. So a jikan-mae is starting the match ahead of the appointed time.

I feel like we get one every few years, and I remember being absolutely floored the first time I saw one (I feel like it was Ama/Harumafuji against someone, but would need to dig back through some posts).

Also, Murray Johnson is an absolute hero. 

Aha, thank you for delivering the spelling and associated sumo lore. I've been watching since 2016, mostly just top division until recently, and it was certainly new to me.

Hoisting a glass for Murray Johnson, as ever.

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4 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

Called a jikan-mae, jikan (時間) being "time" and mae (前) meaning "before". 

We are now lucky to see one or two a year.  Back in the 70's, there were 3 or 4 per basho. The tachiai style was much different.

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11 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

Aha, thank you for delivering the spelling and associated sumo lore. I've been watching since 2016, mostly just top division until recently, and it was certainly new to me.

Hoisting a glass for Murray Johnson, as ever.

My pleasure, I've always got time for sumo lore, especially when there's someone with a BJJ-related forum shikona involved in the discussion! 

7 minutes ago, Asojima said:

We are now lucky to see one or two a year.  Back in the 70's, there were 3 or 4 per basho. The tachiai style was much different.

While I do enjoy the modern fists down, head first charge, there is definitely something I love about the older style squat, at most shake fists in ground's general direction, charge with head and chest up into a yotsu battle. Makes me think of Kitanoumi in his prime for some reason. 

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2 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

Ichinojo on Takakeisho a couple of weeks ago. But then again this might explain why Ichinojo is not quite the yokozuna some pundits predicted he'd be at this point.

That reminds me of a discussion @Tigerboy1966 had back to Hatsu, when Akiseyama was known backstage to have a broken jaw and the likes of Chiyoshoma and Ishiura went for the slap across the face - two good examples of ruthlessness / fierceness.

I'm going to go back on my statement to say that Ichinojo, who sometimes looks like half-man half-rockpile, has shown more than a few acts of sportsmanship on the dohyo.

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3 hours ago, sumojoann said:

To me, a ruthless person acts without regard for the consequences of his/her actions.  Consequences such as the damage to Teru's elbow after that particularly violent kotenage.  Or the ugly harite he inflicted.  A legally sanctioned brawl.

I agree that the root of ruthless is rue, however as we know, it's common linguistically for the meaning of words to change for a variety of reasons.  Current definitions of ruthless in a number of dictionaries point to this.  I have yet to see regret as a definition of ruthless.

**** As a side note, my linguistics professor at UCLA had studied Quechua extensively.  Quechua is the language of the largest population of indigenous people in Peru.  (We students were NOT studying Quechua).  Anyway, he would often say, "Well, as we ALL KNOW, in Quechua," (pause) ...... and then he'd let his voice trail off.  It was always good for a laugh & I haven't forgotten this over 50 years later. ****

Good anecdote about the college prof!  I have some of my own which I will save for some other time ...

"Ruthless" has picked up an active sense of purposeful harm, but I still get the almost clinical sense of not caring either way about one's actions.  Kind of like the difference between immoral and amoral.

I think Hakuho was ruthless the last three days of Nagoya.  The reason I say that is because during the interview he was talking about his fears and hopes and wishes, but not much about his tactics.  Really, that part was just business.

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12 hours ago, sumojoann said:

Very interesting!  I never knew such a thing existed.  Yes, PP's is definitely a little pillow.

The most surprising part of the video was that the security usher appeared to check to make sure she had a proper ticket!

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14 minutes ago, Tochinofuji said:

My pleasure, I've always got time for sumo lore, especially when there's someone with a BJJ-related forum shikona involved in the discussion! 

While I do enjoy the modern fists down, head first charge, there is definitely something I love about the older style squat, at most shake fists in ground's general direction, charge with head and chest up into a yotsu battle. Makes me think of Kitanoumi in his prime for some reason. 

1. You caught me.

2. 9 out of 10 neurologists recommend the no-hands-down tachiai

eKBpK5z.gif

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Posted (edited)

Musashimaru weighed in on Hakuho's behavior during the Nagoya basho:

 

Excerpts: 

On Hakuho's swinging elbows:

"He shouldn't aim to swing his right elbow into his opponent's face...that's not a kachiage...The Kyokai should take action to make such a dangerous action illegal."

 

On Hakuho's match against Shodai:

"I was disgusted watching that. It's an embarrassment for a Yokozuna. As a former Yokuzuna that's unforgivable."

 

On being a Yokozuna:

"A Yokozuna doesn't just wrestle for himself. He also wrestles for the sport itself, as well as the fans of course. It's a position that requires setting an example for the many rikishi below him."
 

Source

Edited by Kaninoyama
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30 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

 

2. 9 out of 10 neurologists recommend the no-hands-down tachiai

"Yeah, I'm the tenth neurologist. You got something to say about it?" 

EmsAkhyW8AIkd8t.jpeg

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