Kintamayama

Nagoya Basho 2021

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I’m sure Hakuho is extremely disappointed and feels guilty about winning 15 - 0 in such a manner!

seriously, the saltiness Hakuho generates is hilarious, I expected many pissed off teru fans but this is crazy.

and using sumo tradition as some sort of excuse as to why the greatest rikishi in the history of the planet “disappointed us purists with such antics!!”

please, at this point sumo owes Hakuho as much as Hakuho owes sumo, the man is a living legend and as long as he isn’t breaking the rules, then he isn’t breaking the rules, it’s that simple. 
 

I think we should all just man up and admit teru has a huge fan base that secretly wanted him to destroy Hakuho in that final day and he got a broken face and arm for his troubles. Tobizaru had a better showing. 

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Hey, good for Hakuho. Honestly though I'll be disappointed of this really isn't his last hurrah. But, my disappointment matters little. 

To explain, the written off greatest of all time coming back, beating all comers (including the  guy taking his place atop the heap), proving his doubters wrong and riding off into the sunset as still king of the mountain - great, regardless of the methods used. 

But if he's still going to be around I would have loved to have seen Terunofuji's 'redemption' (rebirth? Whatever you want to call it) and rise to yokozuna completed with a zensho. 

Still. This tournament delivered us two 14-0 top dogs on the final day. Great drama, as only ozumo can deliver. 

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51 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I recall several photos in the after-yusho photo shoot raising the cup (sorry, I don't remember the Japanese term for it).  It was a good way to watch how the family has grown from basho to basho.  The last really great picture I saw was he and his family holding the Hakuho-meter back in 2017 or so.

Yes, that's right, they have quite often appeared in the after-yusho photo shoot.  That would indicate that they attended many of the bashos but were not out sitting with the other spectators.  A very sad memory was the basho where his wife was pregnant and miscarried the baby on the 12th or 13th day of the basho.  He was praised for having the strength to continue on and I believe he won the yusho. 

What is the Hakuho-meter??

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3 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Yes, that's right, they have quite often appeared in the after-yusho photo shoot.  That would indicate that they attended many of the bashos but were not out sitting with the other spectators.  A very sad memory was the basho where his wife was pregnant and miscarried the baby on the 12th or 13th day of the basho.  He was praised for having the strength to continue on and I believe he won the yusho. 

What is the Hakuho-meter??

When Hakuho was going for the career win record, or maybe a thousand wins, or something, they made a "scoreboard" out of bristol paper to count his wins. It was called the Hakuhometer.

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46 minutes ago, Kuhne said:

I expected many pissed off teru fans 

There would have to first be many teru fans for that to happen. 

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Am I the only one who likes every wrestler? I have my favourites that I will cheer for in head to head matches with others, but there's no one I seethe at or want to fail. Tbh I feel bad for every wrestler who takes an eighth loss.

I even like Chiyoshoma, that rapscallion.

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53 minutes ago, Kuhne said:

we should all just man up and admit teru has a huge fan base

Terunofuji? LOL. He’s won some hearts and minds with his comeback story, it’s true, but he’s never been what I’d call a popular rikishi. A lot of people still haven’t forgiven him for the henka he pulled on Kotoshogiku.

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1 minute ago, neonbelly said:

I even like Chiyoshoma, that rapscallion.

There’s always one. You’ve gone too far!

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10 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

And no - yokozuna is the one rank where there is ostensibly still some discretion to whether to grant it or not. Konishiki was infamously denied promotion on the basis of "no hinkaku as a foreigner" - they wouldn't be as blatant as that today, but there would definitely be doubts beforehand about whether a wrestler who fought like that would be worth promoting.

Nice try to invoke Godwin's law by riding that dead old horse again, but unfortunately it didn't work.

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23 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

There would have to first be many teru fans for that to happen. 

 

17 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Terunofuji? LOL. He’s won some hearts and minds with his comeback story, it’s true, but he’s never been what I’d call a popular rikishi. A lot of people still haven’t forgiven him for the henka he pulled on Kotoshogiku.

I understand he may not be very likable but after his comeback story his hardcores went insane and loud. They are out there. I’m living proof. While not a fan, after he came back I started to take notice more and now I don’t want picture bashos without him scaring the rest of the field left and right like some kind of monster. 
 

But even then, I wanted Hakuho to win

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2 hours ago, Morning said:
8 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

The bit I find the most curious is that nearly everybody - if not all - people who've got recognisable SF usernames and avatars is on the "Hakuho's antics = bad" side of the barricade, while usernames & avatars that I barely ever see here (if at all) are on the "Hakuho's antics = perfectly OK" bench.

It's almost as if general fans of the ozumo world feel one way, and on the other side, the dedicated fanboys of an individual popped out of the bushes to make themselves heard.

I'd say you got that switched around. The dedicated fanboys are those who spends the time on the forum to be present and become household names, have avatars and spend tons of them analysing each little query from their database. Those who who you don't remember and who only seldom if ever post are the general public who only came out of their little lurkerdom when something divisive happened. They aren't dedicated enough to bother for commenting on the general chatter.

More like general devotees of sumo on one hand with the "brand image", and specific defenders of one rikishi on the other. 

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14 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

 

I even like Chiyoshoma, that rapscallion.

I used to hate Chiyoshoma and thought he looked like the sickly cousin of Arawashi, whom I liked.  I hated how he would react when he lost.  He would get a petulant look on his face & throw a hostile glare at his opponent.  A poor loser.  I hated having to look at his pasty a$$, too! lol  However, this basho he seemed to have grown up a little.  He didn't look so sour when he lost and more important, on at least one occasion, he offered his hand to help up another rikishi who had landed outside the dohyo.

Frankly, I disliked Takayasu when he did his pre-bout gorilla routine.  I thought it was laughable, especially since he would often lose right after that overly macho pose.  But he seems like a decent guy and I'm glad he stopped already with the gorilla schtik.

I used to think that Kisenosato was just a self-important sourpuss -- always looked so angry!!  My neighbor, who is gay, thought Kisenosato was fascinating, and was always asking me if his mawashi ever fell off!!  He was disappointed when I always said "no", no matter how many times he asked.

I do find myself wondering what the rikishi are REALLY like, since it's unusual to see them in unguarded moments.  They always look so stoic, which of course is expected.  I find myself staring at them and having weird thoughts, like, "I wonder if this rikishi beats his wife/girlfriend.  He looks nice, but I guess you never know.  What a bummer that would be!"

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Wow, I have not logged on in so long, I am kinda surprised I still knew my password :D

But there is one thing I want to bring forward to all the "Hakuho is behaving like Asashoryu" folks:

The circumstances are very much different. Asa always behaved badly, Hakuho did not for a very long time. And (this is is just speculation on my part) it may also have to do with how little respect he was treated from the press and the Kyokai on many ocassions.

Also Asashoryu always did nonesense outside of the doyho as well, which Hakuho doesn't, as far as we know at least.

I am not saying that excuses everything. But after a long career which was recieved by sumo watchers and press with takes like "Man, it is so boring with Hakuho, when will there be a japanese Yokozuna?" and major criticism of every last minor thing he ever did wrong, and be it just clapping with fans, I feel like I get a bit why you may lose some of that Yokozuna dignity.

At this point in his career he is in it for himself, he is old, broken up, critiziced either way, so he might as well just go for the wins.

Again, much of this is speculation and it does not excuse all the bad behaviour. But putting things into context makes me say that a) he is not the same as Asa and b) I kind of get where he might be coming from.

Either way, when he retires, I think all of this will be forgotten anyways by history (probably not by the Oyakatas though, this might be a tough battle ahead of him) and only his achievments will stand since they far outshine his flaws.

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59 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Terunofuji? LOL. He’s won some hearts and minds with his comeback story, it’s true, but he’s never been what I’d call a popular rikishi. A lot of people still haven’t forgiven him for the henka he pulled on Kotoshogiku.

That was a brutal, brutal henka. But I give Teru some credit for not slinking away. As I recall he strode around the ring with his chin up like he was daring anyone to do something about it. He owned that henka. I also recall that Kotoshogiku rewarded him with a death stare and 0.0 degree bow before leaving the ring.

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11 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

That was a brutal, brutal henka. But I give Teru some credit for not slinking away. As I recall he strode around the ring with his chin up like he was daring anyone to do something about it. He owned that henka. I also recall that Kotoshogiku rewarded him with a death stare and 0.0 degree bow before leaving the ring.

 

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1 hour ago, neonbelly said:
1 hour ago, sumojoann said:

Yes, that's right, they have quite often appeared in the after-yusho photo shoot.  That would indicate that they attended many of the bashos but were not out sitting with the other spectators.  A very sad memory was the basho where his wife was pregnant and miscarried the baby on the 12th or 13th day of the basho.  He was praised for having the strength to continue on and I believe he won the yusho. 

What is the Hakuho-meter??

When Hakuho was going for the career win record, or maybe a thousand wins, or something, they made a "scoreboard" out of bristol paper to count his wins. It was called the Hakuhometer.

There were a few iterations of it. The first was the 1000 wins mark, which can be seen here: https://tachiai.org/2016/11/15/yokozuna-hakuho-1000-wins/ 

Afterwards, when he was going for Chiyonofuji and Kaio's records there was the Hakuho Meter 2. That was way back when his kids were still regularly around in the shitakubeya and championship photos, so I suspect it was something they cooked up.

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29 minutes ago, neonbelly said:
1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Terunofuji? LOL. He’s won some hearts and minds with his comeback story, it’s true, but he’s never been what I’d call a popular rikishi. A lot of people still haven’t forgiven him for the henka he pulled on Kotoshogiku.

That was a brutal, brutal henka. But I give Teru some credit for not slinking away. As I recall he strode around the ring with his chin up like he was daring anyone to do something about it. He owned that henka. I also recall that Kotoshogiku rewarded him with a death stare and 0.0 degree bow before leaving the ring.

Even without the benefit of hindsight he picked the worst possible target to henka - a 5-loss sekiwake Kotoshogiku who'd won a yusho not that long ago and was a very popular rikishi. The benefit of hindsight lets us understand why he did it, because of his own injuries and the pressure to compete, but that doesn't assuage fans of Kotoshogiku or Kotoshogiku himself any because he still lost to a cheap shot.

Bit like the current situation, actually. We can all guess why Hakuho chose to fight the way he did in the last two bouts, but understanding does not mean automatically accepting.

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1 hour ago, neonbelly said:

Am I the only one who likes every wrestler? I have my favourites that I will cheer for in head to head matches with others, but there's no one I seethe at or want to fail. Tbh I feel bad for every wrestler who takes an eighth loss.

I even like Chiyoshoma, that rapscallion.

Me too, I like them all, mainly because they all have the guts to get up on the dohyo and do something I, and most others, could never do. I have my favorites, many of whom lose as much as they win, and I often change who I am barracking for dependent on the narrative of the Basho. But I always remember that these guys do long term physical damage to themselves to participate in sumo, and they are likely to die significantly younger than the average person, and they do it for our entertainment, so actually disliking them for that seems wrong to me somehow. I'm not paying to watch them fight for the most part, and there was a long time where I simply couldn't watch sumo because it wasn't available in any way where I live ( thankyou internet), so just being able to watch any sumo is a privilege

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If Hakuho can complete Aki that makes the first time since 2017 he finished two consecutive basho. Maybe I’ll lighten up on him if he pulls it off.

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Posted (edited)

 

23 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I hope Kitanofuji did, so he didn't have to watch this ugly display of what sumo is not about.

All his previous achievements notwithstanding, Hakuho lost another fan today.

Posts like this (not singling you out!) got me thinking- I felt similarly cheated and disappointed after Hakuhou henka'd Harumafuji for a yusho decider, which I think was a kettei-sen but could have been a honwari day 15 bout.

But then sumo moved on, Hakuhou remained in the picture and I slowly warmed up to him again. With his antics this time around, I doubt he'll be around for long enough to mend his reputation, and I honestly don't think I want him to.

It's just a crying shame that these two days are going to be sitting on the top of the memory pile of such a brilliant rikishi.

Edited by Atenzan

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Let's face it: Hakuho never had a very alluring charisma. Most of his initial image was constructed as an anti-thesis to Asashoryu, turning him into a white knight. Who already back then was not always so squeaky clean (I remember the nickname "tottari weasel", which naturally didn't stuck, but had some foundation in reality). Enter Asashoryu's exit and the phase of utter dominance, which is a legitimate foundation of his GOATness.

That he receives such an amount of flak now is not surprising whatsoever. With the injuries piling up and the dominance dwindling, people who never got warm with him (re: charisma), find the opening that they always needed.

Disclaimer: I was never a real fan of his, but admire the consistency with which he showed how the rest of the troupe was lacking. That he ended the basho like this leaves me undecided. On the one hand I appreciate his Asashoryu legacy act, on the other hand it *seems* so out of character for most. And I understand the hinkaku argument based on that.

Oh and I for one are a big fan of Terunofuji's henka. Just helping righting past wrongs.

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2 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

On the one hand I appreciate his Asashoryu legacy act, on the other hand it *seems* so out of character for most. And I understand the hinkaku argument based on that.

I've been wondering about that and the possible reasons for his out-of-character behaviour.

Hakuho knows stuff we don't, like whether or not he's got a place in the Olympics opening/closing ceremony, and whether or not his acquisition of the Magaki kabu has been approved.

What if what we witnessed was a big middle finger to those who've stabbed him in the back for the last time?

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Oh and now I suddenly remember the thing I personally despise most about Hakuho's career: That henka on day 15 against Hokutoriki in his Makuuchi debut (nothing on line for him; he was already at 11-3, sansho basically in the bag). Hokutoriki was denied his freak yusho, because in the play-off Asashoryu naturally ate his liver.

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1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Oh and now I suddenly remember the thing I personally despise most about Hakuho's career: That henka on day 15 against Hokutoriki in his Makuuchi debut (nothing on line for him; he was already at 11-3, sansho basically in the bag). Hokutoriki was denied his freak yusho, because in the play-off Asashoryu naturally ate his liver.

Here is that 2004 Hatsu basho Day 15 bout between Hakuho, who was 19 years old, and Hokutoriki, who got henka'd.  The bout starts at 8:25. 

 

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13 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

The bit I find the most curious is that nearly everybody - if not all - people who've got recognisable SF usernames and avatars is on the "Hakuho's antics = bad" side of the barricade, while usernames & avatars that I barely ever see here (if at all) are on the "Hakuho's antics = perfectly OK" bench.

It's almost as if general fans of the ozumo world feel one way, and on the other side, the dedicated fanboys of an individual popped out of the bushes to make themselves heard.

Just because one doesn't post regularly doesn't make them a "general fan". They may just not like posting their thoughts all the time. 
Commenting/approving of Hakuho's tactics doesn't make one a "dedicated fanboy" either. 

It seems that this discussion comes down to three sets of fans: 
a. those who appreciate and hold the unwritten rules dear and believe that Hakuho breaks them in an ugly manner unbecoming of his position 
b. those who see a win as a win as long as the written rules were not broken. If you don't like an unwritten rule broken... then codify it.

c. those with a blend of "a" and "b"

I think I'm "c" with a 70% "b" / 30% "a" blend. Personally, I'm not a fan of unwritten rules that outweigh written rules in sports. But I understand your overall point. I suspect that those that post more regularly place more value on & appreciate the unwritten rules more so than us quieter fans. 

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