Kintamayama

Nagoya Basho 2021

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Joaoiyama said:

People talking crazy, Hakuho did no wrong with a relieving celebration.

Yeah I think the celebration is perfectly understandable. The optics on it after not a very graceful bout, however...

And then again, it wouldn't be the first time Hakuho got in trouble for post-musubi shenanigans.

Edited by Seiyashi

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Just now, Joaoiyama said:

People talking crazy, Hakuho did no wrong with a relieving celebration.

In other sports, yes. In sumo, it's just not (supposed to be) done. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, since_94 said:

I mean, what the heck do people want before they’re satisfied?
 

The answers to this question change fundamentally every other basho. The trend or popular opinion changing around here are as entertaining as the basho itself.

Edited by Chankomafuji
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Personally I’ve begun to think you shouldn’t be allowed to smack around your aite’s head at all (thrusting should be to get them out of the ring, not to concuss them), and the elbow to the face is arguably worse than Takakgenji’s uppercuts. It’s also laid somebody out cold before.

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So let's get this nailed down.  It's not enough for Hakuho to win a 45th yusho at the age of 36, without losing a single bout for the sixteenth time.  Because being a Yokozuna means we get to stipulate your tactics, present you with the daily pressure of watching your main rival win first, criticize the hell out of anything you do that we don't like, and you better not look happy when you win.  Other than taking down Hakuho, our other main frustration on the forum seems to be the time it is taking for his replacements to emerge.  I can't really blame them for taking their time.  Who wants a rope that will strangle you?

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2 minutes ago, since_94 said:

***

We can always ask the record keepers to put an asterisk beside #45 (and #16 zen yusho) with the annotation: “ugly sumo (as deemed by some pundits)” but somehow I think they won’t.

***

We can edit it ourselves on Wikipedia. :-D

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People complain about rikishi giving bland, boring interviews but then complain about a genuine show of emotion such as Hakuho’s celebration. The man’s career was under threat and he’s just gone and won a zensho yusho!

I was really half expecting a retirement announcement in the yusho interview but I guess that would have invalidated him from participating in the Olympic dohyo iri. Little signs like the way he bowed down to the edge of the dohyo before the bout, and then Enho acting as his tsukebito made me wonder if this is the end (of course it could still be). I hope not because for me watching Hakuho is still something special and something I don’t want to end.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

So let's get this nailed down.  It's not enough for Hakuho to win a 45th yusho at the age of 36, without losing a single bout for the sixteenth time.  Because being a Yokozuna means we get to stipulate your tactics, present you with the daily pressure of watching your main rival win first, criticize the hell out of anything you do that we don't like, and you better not look happy when you win.  Other than taking down Hakuho, our other main frustration on the forum seems to be the time it is taking for his replacements to emerge.  I can't really blame them for taking their time.  Who wants a rope that will strangle you?

These ARE the things that go along with being a Yokozuna, whether or not they are reasonable or we mostly foreign fans can fully understand them or not. 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, since_94 said:

***

We can always ask the record keepers to put an asterisk beside #45 (and #16 zen yusho) with the annotation: “ugly sumo (as deemed by some pundits)” but somehow I think they won’t.

***

Yeah, well, as I said, the result is undeniable. We might remember he won yusho X with a henka but as you noted, there's no corresponding annotation in the history books that "yusho X was won with a henka depriving Kisenosato of a playoff". It sort of helps that his mass of yusho means they kind of blend into each other and most of them are undeniable, unlike maybe someone who might have won much fewer yusho and all through trickery or something. 

But it does accelerate the mass of opinion as to "if he can't do honest straightforward sumo, he should go". Sumo is a sport, yes, but there's also a cultural backdrop to it which means it's not as accepting of "win at all costs" as other sports would be. It's really the violation of that unwritten consensus that sumo ought to be done a certain way that Hakuho is getting flak for, not so much the fact that he won the championship (again). The fact that he is at the tail end of his career adds the further stinger of "and if he can't do proper sumo then he should retire".

1 minute ago, Kaninoyama said:
3 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

So let's get this nailed down.  It's not enough for Hakuho to win a 45th yusho at the age of 36, without losing a single bout for the sixteenth time.  Because being a Yokozuna means we get to stipulate your tactics, present you with the daily pressure of watching your main rival win first, criticize the hell out of anything you do that we don't like, and you better not look happy when you win.  Other than taking down Hakuho, our other main frustration on the forum seems to be the time it is taking for his replacements to emerge.  I can't really blame them for taking their time.  Who wants a rope that will strangle you?

These ARE the things that go along with being a Yokozuna, whether or not they are reasonable or we mostly foreign fans can fully understand them or not. 

Yes.

Raiden was barred from using his favourite techniques to keep bouts interesting.

When you get promoted to yokozuna, there's a reason hinkaku is a criterion. If you win as an ozeki with honest sumo you can legitimately be said to have beaten all your opponents and hence be deserving of the rank. But you're also expected to retire if you can no longer wrestle at that standard - which includes all of the above mentioned.

Edited by Seiyashi
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Posted (edited)

I'll bet half the people defending Hakuho's tactics are the same people who criticize sloppy sumo among the junior rikishi and use it as evidence they're not ready to step up because they don't do 'Yokozuna sumo' or suggest Shodai wasn't worth his promotion for similar reasons. We're all capable of inconsistency at some point, eh?

Edited by Eikokurai

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6 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

Personally I’ve begun to think you shouldn’t be allowed to smack around your aite’s head at all

I think the mood music in sports generally is going that way, regardless of details about individual bouts or rikishi and a ban is only a matter of time.

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Harite is already banned in international amasumo

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2 minutes ago, nagora said:
10 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

Personally I’ve begun to think you shouldn’t be allowed to smack around your aite’s head at all

I think the mood music in sports generally is going that way, regardless of details about individual bouts or rikishi and a ban is only a matter of time.

I just hope it doesn't take another severe concussion to a rikishi for the NSK to move on that. Oh wait, who am I kidding.

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Just now, Seiyashi said:

I just hope it doesn't take another severe concussion to a rikishi for the NSK to move on that. Oh wait, who am I kidding.

Well, you've got to say that if boxing hasn't banned it then Sumo certainly won't. And at the moment I think there's a lot of resistance to a ban in boxing, which is not short of severe concussions. But I expect NSK will point to that as their "well, they're doing it much more" card.

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We have someone about to be promoted to yokozuna, and no one is talking about it

Hak sure does get the discussion going :-D

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1 minute ago, Katooshu said:

We have someone about to be promoted to yokozuna, and no one is talking about it

Hak sure does get the discussion going :-D

You missed the discussion party yesterday, and even so it was limited to "yep, he's done it, the madman".

With the newsflash by NHK that the promotion committee is meeting tomorrow to discuss it, it's as good as a done deal. We're just awaiting the festivities - and to see how bad Terunofuji's dohyo-iri's stomps are going to be!

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5 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

Personally I’ve begun to think you shouldn’t be allowed to smack around your aite’s head at all (thrusting should be to get them out of the ring, not to concuss them), and the elbow to the face is arguably worse than Takakgenji’s uppercuts. It’s also laid somebody out cold before.

That's a fair comment, and I agree.  But until they make a rule that applies to everyone from Hakuho to Shonanzakura about it, rather than the all-star team of 1973 shaking their heads and saying "that's not the sumo I know," it's not fair to comment that Hakuho's win is tainted, as others are doing.  No judge raised his hand.  No rule, no foul.  Every sport has this: players figure out how to screw with the rules, or lack of them, and you update the rules accordingly.  Sumo is the only sport I know that keeps the rules secret and lets the executives set the example for the fans, by publicly pissing on the players when they don't like how they've solved a problem.

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35 minutes ago, Michishige said:

Has the Japanese Olympic Committee confirmed that he will be a part of the opening ceremony? I find that kind of fascinating…a non-native Japanese person representing their national sport on the global stage seems very unusual for Japan. 
 

He clearly deserves the Olympic honor, but he also deserves the toshiyori kabu and won’t be getting that. :-/

The only thing actually on the Olympic schedule for Hakuho is this

On 09/03/2021 at 15:47, Akinomaki said:
On 18/12/2019 at 21:15, Akinomaki said:

Hakuho has a part in the Olympics - but maybe not as planned: he'll be a torchbearer to run in the Olympic torch relay in Sumida-ward, where the kokugikan is located.

Hakuho has a tough schedule: the torch relay in Sumida ward is on July 19th, the day after day 15 of the July basho, which is planned to be in Nagoya http://www.sumo.or.jp/Admission/isolate/606/. The 2nd part has the kokugikan as the goal, planned arrival at the kokugikan 16:01h JST, logically Hakuho should be running as the last to be the one there. https://gtimg.tokyo2020.org/image/upload/production/lxwifuxxyoqkvommhxqb.pdf

On 05/04/2021 at 18:05, Akinomaki said:

Looks like the basho really will be in Nagoya, and Hakuho with that knee may hardly finish the basho - but so far he has not declared he won't run. Today he started rehabilitation in the heya by walking around the keiko ground - the time to start shiko stamping again will be carefully chosen. o

NHK streams the torch relay run live and the videos remain (VPN for Japan needed) https://sports.nhk.or.jp/olympic/torch/

11 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The yusho interview was filled with deep emotions, no time to think about tomorrow - will Hakuho return to Tokyo after celebrations and run in the relay?

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15 minutes ago, ViscountessNivlac said:

Personally I’ve begun to think you shouldn’t be allowed to smack around your aite’s head at all (thrusting should be to get them out of the ring, not to concuss them), and the elbow to the face is arguably worse than Takakgenji’s uppercuts. It’s also laid somebody out cold before.

It's almost as if they have to wait for someone to suffer a bad injury as a result of this before any action will be taken.  Look at rugby now, they are trying to enforce tackles being no higher than shoulder/mid-section so that the head is not at risk.  Leading elbows to the head needs to be stamped out ASAP.

 

Swami

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Posted (edited)

If they want to completely stamp out violations of 'unwritten rules' and customs, they need to actually make them punishable fouls. Head shaking isn't enough because you'll still get people with the 'a win is a win' mindset - so might as well keep doing it until it stops being a win.

Edited by Katooshu

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, since_94 said:

 

As for alleging poor sportsmanship for the celebration….whatever. Look at those numbers, will ya?

 

I think most people have issue with the forearm blast rather than the celebration.

That's what I considered poor sportsmanship anyway... 

I did want Hakuho to win the bout but was a bit disappointed in the way he did it.

Edited by Edwardoho

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Posted (edited)

I doubt that much of the Hak 'hate' is based on him not winning enough. I don't really understand the 'this will silence the critics' stuff -- the man already had 44 yusho, him getting a bunch of criticism over the years, fair or otherwise, it isn't due to a lack of success. 

Edited by Katooshu

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4 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

I doubt that much of the Hak 'hate' is based on him not winning enough. I don't really understand the 'this will silence the critics' stuff -- the man already had 44 yusho, him getting a bunch of criticism over the years, fair or otherwise, it isn't due to a lack of success. 

I think it’s referring more to people saying he’s washed up and it’s time to ride off into the sunset.

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52 minutes ago, Michishige said:

Has the Japanese Olympic Committee confirmed that he will be a part of the opening ceremony? I find that kind of fascinating…a non-native Japanese person representing their national sport on the global stage seems very unusual for Japan. 
 

He clearly deserves the Olympic honor, but he also deserves the toshiyori kabu and won’t be getting that. :-/

So who represented sumo ceremony at Nagano Winter Olympics? Btw why is everyone assuming Hakuho has a role in the Olympics? 

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12 minutes ago, Edwardoho said:

 

I think most people have issue with the forearm blast rather than the celebration.

That's what I considered poor sportsmanship anyway... 

I did want Hakuho to win the bout but was a bit disappointed in the way he did it.

I’ve always scoffed at the idea of some techniques being dishonourable, but preventing somebody from using their skills by bashing them in the head does feel legitimately dishonourable. I’m not saying this is the sole time it’s happened (though Hakuho has used that elbow a lot). Maybe Terunofuji’s even done it before. This match is just the one that got me thinking.

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