Seiyashi

Asanoyama caught violating COVID restrictions

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8 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

It depends on how long Terunofuji stays around.  One thing I notice is that he's 0-3 against Hakuho, 1-2 against Kakuryu (and that win was against an injured Kakuryu on his way out of the Aki 2019 basho); more disturbingly, he's 0-5 against Terunofuji and only 4-5 against Takakeisho.  I think he can be a solid Ozeki you can be proud of, but to become a Yokozuna he'll have to show the killer instinct that Yokozuna have.  I don't think he's shown that.

Although his Day 14 loss to Kakuryu in March 2020 was extremely close and controversial:

 

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Kakuryū isn't exactly projecting the sort of "cross me and you die" aura compared to Hakuhō or Terunofuji though, and Asanoyama still made it super fine against him. I'll have to agree that Asanoyama needs a bit more of an alpha mentality to take his game to the next level. 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Gurowake said:

If Terunofuji can make it back to Yokozuna after being injured, I don't see why Asanoyama can't.  He got 10 wins in every basho he completed as Ozeki as well as 4 tournaments before that.  That certainly looks like someone who can make Yokozuna.

Because with Asanoyama we have to consider more then just his skill... he didn't drop down because of injury, he dropped down because he broke the rules, got caught while breaking them, lied about it to NSK, got proven a liar by a tabloid creating a huge embarrassment for the NSK in the process of doing that.

I don't really see them repromoting him to Ozeki unless he pretty much forces their hand...meaning 35/36 wins over three basho as Sekiwake. And even that might not be enough if he doesn't win a Yusho in that stretch.

Edited by Ripe
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1 hour ago, Ripe said:

Because with Asanoyama we have to consider more then just his skill... he didn't drop down because of injury, he dropped down because he broke the rules, got caught while breaking them, lied about it to NSK, got proven a liar by a tabloid creating a huge embarrassment for the NSK in the process of doing that.

I don't really see them repromoting him to Ozeki unless he pretty much forces their hand...meaning 35/36 wins over three basho as Sekiwake. And even that might not be enough if he doesn't win a Yusho in that stretch.

I'd argue the opposite. They could have forced him to retire, but didn't. They suspended him because their hand was forced, not because they wanted to. They would love if he could make it all the way back and press for Yokozuna. Realistically, I think he gets the same treatment as anyone from this point.

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2 minutes ago, Kaito said:

I'd argue the opposite. They could have forced him to retire, but didn't. They suspended him because their hand was forced, not because they wanted to. They would love if he could make it all the way back and press for Yokozuna. Realistically, I think he gets the same treatment as anyone from this point.

They couldn't really force him to retire considering they didn't forced Abi to retire for breaking that same rule...

Besides, you can make an argument that forcing him to retire would be letting him of the hook easily... he'd be gone and that would be it. This way they could use his potential re-promotion as a way of keeping him in line... without him ever getting it, or the eventual kabu to stay as oyakata (for that he'll need to stay on long enough for current decision makers to retire).

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20 minutes ago, Ripe said:

They couldn't really force him to retire considering they didn't forced Abi to retire for breaking that same rule...

Besides, you can make an argument that forcing him to retire would be letting him of the hook easily... he'd be gone and that would be it. This way they could use his potential re-promotion as a way of keeping him in line... without him ever getting it, or the eventual kabu to stay as oyakata (for that he'll need to stay on long enough for current decision makers to retire).

I will leave the psychologizing to the experts on this Forum; I know enough not to predict what Japanese institutions will do, and I know that Ozumo is that, squared.  I know these facts: he will need at least six basho to get back up to ~Sanyaku level; then he will need at least a couple more basho to reach Ozeki.  At that point he will be almost 30.  We will see how he comes back; if he comes back like Abi, he will eventually become an Ozeki again, but to become a Yokozuna he will need to come back like Terunofuji.  Sorry, just my opinion.

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2 hours ago, Ripe said:

They couldn't really force him to retire considering they didn't forced Abi to retire for breaking that same rule...

Besides, you can make an argument that forcing him to retire would be letting him of the hook easily... he'd be gone and that would be it. This way they could use his potential re-promotion as a way of keeping him in line... without him ever getting it, or the eventual kabu to stay as oyakata (for that he'll need to stay on long enough for current decision makers to retire).

I think many, myself included, would argue the opposite. They could absolutely force his retirement, in part because Abi was a warning about how seriously the rule was to be taken, and moreover Asanoyama was an ozeki when he broke it. Prior warning and higher position made a forced retirement a real possibility. I think his popularity and his very real potential to become the next Japanese yokozuna stayed their hand, rather than any thought as to the Abi precedent (which as I say above may well have cut the other way at any rate). 

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3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I will leave the psychologizing to the experts on this Forum; I know enough not to predict what Japanese institutions will do, and I know that Ozumo is that, squared.  I know these facts: he will need at least six basho to get back up to ~Sanyaku level; then he will need at least a couple more basho to reach Ozeki.  At that point he will be almost 30.  We will see how he comes back; if he comes back like Abi, he will eventually become an Ozeki again, but to become a Yokozuna he will need to come back like Terunofuji.  Sorry, just my opinion.

If you compare their 6 comeback basho starting in lower makushita, Abi actually did better than Terunofuji. Abi went 7-0 7-0 11-4 13-2 12-3 12-3 to rise to sekiwake. Teru went 6-1 6-1 7-0 13-2 10-5 13-2 to rise to M1. Of course, Abi has (so far) plateaued after that, while Teru, after one mediocre basho, found another gear.

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Personally, I didn't think Asanoyama would actually sit out the whole suspension. I was sure he'd quit. 

Coming in at Sandanme lets him shake off some rust without presenting overly much opposition, and my hunch is he'll be back to sanyaku in one years time. Terunofuji won't last another year and Asanoyama can already wrestle with the likes of Takakeisho and Mitakeumi and Shodai. And so, yeah, Asanoyama will be getting on 30 when he hits O2EKI (trademark pending) but I don't think he's going to have credible opposition on his way there.

Given that he was the most consistently good Ozeki before his suspension (and, uh, maybe still since?) I'm more curious whether someone else can make it to Yokozuna before he does. 

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On 27/05/2022 at 11:28, Yarimotsu said:

Surely the only real point of interest is whether kototebakari can put up anything against him. The kid looks really strong

I'd say recent sandanme tsukedashi Hatsuyama and Kayo are considerably more dangerous than Kototebakari.

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I think there could be someone else to make Y before him.

Then again what if Teru then decides to hang it up so they're back to one and probably wanting another?

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On 27/05/2022 at 19:54, Seiyashi said:

I'll have to agree that Asanoyama needs a bit more of an alpha mentality to take his game to the next level. 

Asanoyama is going to need to do better than THIS if he ever wants to be Yokozuna!  The bout starts at 3:00. 

 

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I miss Enhō in makuuchi more than Asanoyama, to be honest. Hopefully with the trio of promising lower rankers coming up in Miyagino, he'll be able to refine his sumō and make it back into makuuchi. 

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Just now, Seiyashi said:

I miss Enhō in makuuchi more than Asanoyama, to be honest. Hopefully with the trio of promising lower rankers coming up in Miyagino, he'll be able to refine his sumō and make it back into makuuchi. 

Does anyone know his physical condition at this time?  Is he still suffering from injuries?  That's what's going to keep him out of Makuuchi.  I miss him, too.  A lot.....

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13 hours ago, Ripe said:

Because with Asanoyama we have to consider more then just his skill... he didn't drop down because of injury, he dropped down because he broke the rules, got caught while breaking them, lied about it to NSK, got proven a liar by a tabloid creating a huge embarrassment for the NSK in the process of doing that.

I don't really see them repromoting him to Ozeki unless he pretty much forces their hand...meaning 35/36 wins over three basho as Sekiwake. And even that might not be enough if he doesn't win a Yusho in that stretch.

I can get on board with the need to do it at Sekiwake (or Komusubi—they’re basically the same) but 33/45 is more than enough. As I’ve said before, his suspension was his punishment. He’s served his time and is thus entitled to any promotion by the numbers that he earns. Yokozuna has that extra hinkaku stuff, but that’s all subjective and meaningless, let’s be honest, and can be spun anyway they like. “He has plenty of hinkaku—look at how he accepted his punishment with grace, worked his way back and showed himself to be rehabilitated,” etc.

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1 hour ago, sumojoann said:

Does anyone know his physical condition at this time?  Is he still suffering from injuries?  That's what's going to keep him out of Makuuchi.  I miss him, too.  A lot.....

No idea. I seem to recall he is carrying occasional injuries from time to time, but nothing definite or concrete I can point to. It might just have been a continuation of his neck and back woes that forced him out of makuuchi in the first place.

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7 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I'd say recent sandanme tsukedashi Hatsuyama and Kayo are considerably more dangerous than Kototebakari.

I thought hatsuyama looked pretty underwhelming by rough comparison, but sandanme is the division I pay the least attention to so perhaps I'm wrong. Historical records indicate sd65 6-1s generally do poorly in the next basho, it's a bit of a nothing rank. Didn't catch any of kayo's bouts, obviously a 6-1 from a new tsukedashi is pretty good, historically seems just as likely as a jonidan yusho that landed its winner around sd20-30 to indicate a good performance next time out. Anyway we shall see when the time comes - just from a glance I think asanoyama and kototebakari will land close enough together that they could fight at 4 or 5 straight wins, maybe even earlier.

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12 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

No idea. I seem to recall he is carrying occasional injuries from time to time, but nothing definite or concrete I can point to. It might just have been a continuation of his neck and back woes that forced him out of makuuchi in the first place.

He looked more like himself in March, but wasn't great in May...

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19 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I'd say recent sandanme tsukedashi Hatsuyama and Kayo are considerably more dangerous than Kototebakari.

Obviously you can't draw too many conclusions from two matches, but Kayo lost pretty badly to Ieshima(who's pretty decent himself, 6-1 from Sd83 at 17 yo), and then Ieshima got wrecked by Kototebakari

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Posted (edited)

KotoT vs Kayo or Hatsuyama would be interesting matches. He's yet to face a good collegiate rikishi (Toseiryu has 0 accomplishments of note), so it would provide a better idea of how far along he is. Ieshima beat Kayo, true, but I doubt he'll be keeping up with his progression much longer. Many of the Sd100TD starters who became sekitori lost to random sandanme opponents who they are far superior to, and who were themselves beaten by opponents much weaker than the Sd100TD starter. The same happened to Terunofuji on his way back up.

Asanoyama, who like Wakatakakage went 5-2 in his debut basho in sandanme, should have little problem with any of them if he's even 70 percent of what he was.

Edited by Katooshu
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On 29/05/2022 at 18:59, maglor said:

Obviously you can't draw too many conclusions from two matches...

You can't draw many conclusions from some long-term stats either. With some rikishi there's almost a rock-paper-scissors thing going on. For example, according to their respective h2h Mitakeumi usually beats Tamawashi, who usually beats Kaisei, who usually beats Mitakeumi. It's one of the reasons I find sumo so fascinating.

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Posted (edited)

Posted here as well:

Returning ex- Ozeki Asanoyama trained at home today. He had 24 bouts in total, going 9-3 against Juryo Asanowaka. "He is steadily moving better  It's been a while (a year.) but he's back for Nagoya, probably from Sandanme, but I want him to gambarize as it is a come-back.." said his Oyakata. He has not been receiving preferential treatment this past year, doing all the heya chores, cooking, cleaning, etc.. like all the other Makushita and unders. "He's just like the others so it goes without saying..Those are the heya rules," added the Oyakata. Additionally, he has been living at the heya in a room with 3 other rikishi ("our Makushita guys live in the Makushita rooms", explained Takasago Oyakata..).  At the beginning of his punishment he seemed to be dejected but has gotten over it gradually . "After about half a year he seemed to be returning to his old self and has been training seriously. I advised him not to forget his sumo, even though a year has passed. We have a month till next basho and I'm sure he will be preparing himself  mentally and physically. If he goes about it as usual  when he steps on the dohyo on day 1, that would be good!" summed Takasago Oyakata.

 

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Edited by Kintamayama
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