Seiyashi

Asanoyama caught violating COVID restrictions

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3 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I’m pretty sure that the resignation papers issued are part of the game, and are pretty much expected to be refused, just like Tate Gyoji Inosuke’s constant resignations after another sashichigae is always refused. I’m pretty sure Asanoyama can leave anytime he wants if he really wants to and is not just going through the motions. BTW, did Ryuuden hand in resignation papers?

Not that was disclosed in the reports at the time. On second reflection, didn't something similar with the resignation papers happen with Enatsukasa and Chiyohakuko during match fixing, and they had to insist on retiring before they were let go (they were originally handed lengthy suspensions too)?

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2 hours ago, Reonito said:

Assuming Asanoyama decides to stick it out and fight back, the trajectory should look something like this:

7.21 O -> 9.21 S -> 11.21 M10 -> 1.22 J5 -> 3.22 Ms5 -> 5.22 Ms45 -> 7.22 Sd25

On the way back up, assuming 7-0 in the lower divisions, and 12 wins as sekitori, I get:

9.22 Ms16 -> 11.22 Ms1 -> 1.23 J12 -> 3.23 J3 -> 5.23 M12 -> 7.23 M1

So he could return to the paid ranks in early 2023, and the joi about two years from now. He won't get his rank back until 2024, and that's assuming Terunofuji-like dominance.

7-0 from Sd25 and higher is practically an auto-promotion into the makushita top 15, so if they're nice enough to demote him no further he might be back in juryo within two basho.

 

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Actually, then, does that make it paradoxically more likely that there will be a 4(?!) sekiwake banzuke? If both sekiwake KK and Asanoyama is already making it three sekiwake (quite likely IMO, at least more than 4 komusubi), would a strong 10-5 from one of the komusubi make the shimpan go "heck, for the sake of symmetry might as well punt one of them up"? Not that it's been a concern in recent basho, but a logjam in the joi would make this more likely as well methinks.

3 ozeki + 3 sekiwake is more symmetrical than 3 + 4. ;-) (Am I implying zero yokozuna here? You be the judge...)

Edited by Asashosakari
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7 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

7-0 from Sd25 and higher is practically an auto-promotion into the makushita top 15, so if they're nice enough to demote him no further he might be back in juryo within two basho.

 

3 ozeki + 3 sekiwake is more symmetrical than 3 + 4. ;-) (Am I implying zero yokozuna here? You be the judge...)

Yes, well, I'm assuming Hakuho will remain active till Aki (or at least be on the banzuke) for propriety's sake, and to cover the entire duration of whatever Olympic activities he may want to take part in as yokozuna. So that might make 2 yokozuna and 2 ozeki - and then 3 sekiwake turn up to spoil the party? (Thinkingindepth...)

It's certainly a whim. If the rest of the banzuke doesn't support it then yeah. But if they have 2 yokozuna and 2 ozeki, and there's some upward pressure in the joi (of the sort we haven't had recently), one of the shimpan might just go "sod it, poke this komusubi upwards, then at least the banzuke looks balanced" and the others might have a few drinks and decide it's a good idea after all. If indeed we get 4 sekiwake for Aki, you heard it here first ;-)

Edited by Seiyashi

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8 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

7-0 from Sd25 and higher is practically an auto-promotion into the makushita top 15, so if they're nice enough to demote him no further he might be back in juryo within two basho.

I'd looked, and it seems like Sd25 is the dividing line for that in recent years, with the last two instances at that rank making it a toss-up.

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6 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I'd looked, and it seems like Sd25 is the dividing line for that in recent years, with the last two instances at that rank making it a toss-up.

So the question is whether or not we can conclude that Abi was or was not treated more harshly than a regular 0-7/15 or 0-0-7/15 of a comparable rank - or, in other words, whether it seemed banzuke luck was against him more often than not. If it was, then it's likely that the cumulative effect of Asanoyama's demotions will land him on the wrong side of Sd25.

Edited by Seiyashi
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Assuming three straight 7-0 for Asanoyama after sitting out for a whole year makes me itching for a steak.

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Just now, Jakusotsu said:

Assuming three straight 7-0 for Asanoyama after sitting out for a whole year makes me itching for a steak.

Go get one at Atenzan's steakhouse. 

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5 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I'd looked, and it seems like Sd25 is the dividing line for that in recent years, with the last two instances at that rank making it a toss-up.

Yeah, they made some changes in the handling of the top records following Nagoya 2000:

6-1 @ Sd46-Sd50: before / after
6-1 @ Jd66-Jd70: before / after
7-0 @ Sd21-Sd25: before / after

Hagane's case does stick out, but I've always rationalized that as them simply dismissing him as a rikishi who "needed" that promotion into the top 15, considering he was 31 years old and hadn't been that high since his mid-20s.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Go get one at Atenzan's steakhouse. 

There's some good stuff in Jakusotsu's crow recipe book, I'm making my way through that at the moment...

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So is Asanoyama gonna get his reporter friend a new job? Bunch of people get ousted, get docked pay but still need to work. Asanoyama gets a paid vacation. Must be nice.

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2 hours ago, Atenzan said:

There's some good stuff in Jakusotsu's crow recipe book, I'm making my way through that at the moment...

Just in case you're looking for a follow up. A personal favourite of mine! 

51-BYdovQgL._SX321_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

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7 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

Brother should have just stayed home like he was supposed to (Idunno...)

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5 minutes ago, Godango said:
13 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

Brother should have just stayed home like he was supposed to (Idunno...)

That is too much complexity addiction. Considering what Herouth is divulging of ex-Asashio's laissez-faire attitude towards the guidelines, I believe the explanation is much simpler. In Chinese, we have a saying that "when the upper beam (of a house) is not straight, the lower beam will be crooked" - it's as simple as that IMO. I don't see all the other heya pleading the same excuses as Chris is alleging to keep sponsors happy, who must surely understand that these are exceptional times.

Besides he's sounding as if Asanoyama has been forcibly retired. He's got some prime years wasted, sure, but that's his own stupidity.

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I was expecting intai, but maybe the punishment is much worse.

I do not think his case is the same as Terunofuji (or Ryuden, Tochinoshin, Tomokaze and so much many more). An injury is an accident and you can wrap your mind around and prevail. Asanoyama did not have an accident, he made no mistake: he broke the rules on purpose while being am Ozeki. Does he have the mental strength to overcome his sin?.

We will see...

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20 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I reckon 'demotion' only applies to oyakata or similar NHK staff. That's not too uncommon, but I believe we've never seen any rikishi shunted down the banzuke the hard way. It's always been via a suspension + an organic ranking decline due to the 0 wins. At least officially... looking at you, Boody 

You might want to edit NHK. Could make a few announcers nervous.

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9 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

So is Asanoyama gonna get his reporter friend a new job? Bunch of people get ousted, get docked pay but still need to work. Asanoyama gets a paid vacation. Must be nice.

I tried some mathematics, which is always a dumb idea, but if Wikipedia is somewhat correct and we can plausibly assume Asanoyama would have kept Ozeki for at least a year, he looses at least 250 000 $ over the course of the next 16 months. So it's probably not as nice as it seems. 

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4 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

I agree, while it is true that Nishikijima, Takasago, members of the media can be apportioned a fair bit of blame, the bottom line is Asanoyama, like every one of us, is reponsible for his own actions.  Given he lied before he eventually came clean about what happened, somehow portraying Asanoyama as a victim simply doesn't wash.  

Given the timescale of the ban, and time involved in potentially returning to makunouchi, it will take at least two years before he returns to anywhere near his current rank.

And surely there is a need to send a serious message to all others who would contemplate similar breaches of COVID regulations.

 

Swami

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17 hours ago, specialweek 2 said:

You might want to edit NHK. Could make a few announcers nervous.

oops

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19 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

In Chinese, we have a saying that "when the upper beam (of a house) is not straight, the lower beam will be crooked"

上梁不正下梁歪

Often forgotten by the ruling party here in China (Sigh...)

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On 12/06/2021 at 07:21, WAKATAKE said:

Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

Chris talks a lot of sense about what he sees as the hypocrisy of the NSK. He suggests that the Association knows exactly what goes on between wrestlers and their "sponsors" but chooses to turn a blind eye until the media gets hold of a story. He sees Asanoyama as a naive victim who was led astray. I could agree with this if Asanoyama was a young kid but he's a 27-year-old man and should be able to say "no".

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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Chris talks a lot of sense about what he sees as the hypocrisy of the NSK. He suggests that the Association knows exactly what goes on between wrestlers and their "sponsors" but chooses to turn a blind eye until the media gets hold of a story. He sees Asanoyama as a naive victim who was led astray. I could agree with this if Asanoyama was a young kid but he's a 27-year-old man and should be able to say "no".

Well, unfortunately, the world is a lot less black and white than he likes to set it as. Andy on Tachiai pointed out exactly what's wrong with that statement - there are infractions and infractions, and 1km over the speed limit is not the same as 100km over the speed limit. Going out to hostess clubs pre banzuke day may be alright, but doing it afterwards and then lying to your bosses certainly crosses the line. The more I listen to him, the more I realise that he has a major tendency to "flatten" this logic beyond the point of rationality, even if he does sound correct initially.

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13 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

 The more I listen to him, the more I realise that he has a major tendency to "flatten" this logic beyond the point of rationality, even if he does sound correct initially.

It's the accent. 

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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

It's the accent. 

That I can agree with. It also sounds condescending and holier than thou

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4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Well, unfortunately, the world is a lot less black and white than he likes to set it as. Andy on Tachiai pointed out exactly what's wrong with that statement - there are infractions and infractions, and 1km over the speed limit is not the same as 100km over the speed limit. Going out to hostess clubs pre banzuke day may be alright, but doing it afterwards and then lying to your bosses certainly crosses the line. The more I listen to him, the more I realise that he has a major tendency to "flatten" this logic beyond the point of rationality, even if he does sound correct initially.

And here, as I understand the facts, Asanoyama wasn't going out at the behest of some wealthy and powerful benefactor at any rate, but was out with his reporter buddy (with Asanoyama footing the bill). So even if the system is corrupt and wealthy sponsors are forcing wrestlers to violate COVID restrictions, which would be a serious issue, that's entirely a red herring and not what happened here. 

That said, I may not have the facts straight, but absent some evidence Asanoyama was out and about due to some sort of obligation, the analysis seems a bit off the mark. 

I do still very much enjoy Mr. Gould's work and scoops, and this shouldn't be taken as a dig in any respect. I'm just not sure I or his conclusions follow. 

Edited by Tochinofuji
Typo ("a bit of the mark" to "a bit off the mark")
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