Asashosakari

Banzuke for Natsu 2021

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6 hours ago, Wakaebala said:

I understand this explanation, but I'm not sure: why were there no Maezumo results last basho?

Because a lot of the recruits were attending their traditional graduation ceremonies in March, hence the difficulty in ensuring that they would be COVID free for maezumo with the travels and contacts. 

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10 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I've never got why Ikioi has so many ardent fans. Is it because he's good looking and can sing?

Simply and firstly because he was a good, strong joi rikishi, even if he never won more than 8 ranked higher than M4. You knew you got to see everything he has, every single bout. Ikioi means fighting spirit in Japanese. He has tappuri of that. The fact that he is good looking and can sing is a bonus. He is a broken man physically at this point, but we've seen broken rikishi being fixed. We shall see.

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On 26/04/2021 at 13:09, pricklypomegranate said:

No! Ikioi must survive! :'-(

I felt the same about Toyonoshima (Tearsforming...)

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17 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I've never got why Ikioi has so many ardent fans. Is it because he's good looking and can sing?

I think his looks and his good singing is quite superficial - his real charm lies in his fighting spirit, his decency to his family, fans and fellow rikishi but most of all his sincerity and kindness. I always fall for people like that. (Inlove...)

33 minutes ago, 808morgan said:

I felt the same about Toyonoshima

Toyonoshima is also one of my all-time favourites. Yeah, he was implicated in the baseball gambling scandal, yet he was one of the most honourable ones as I don't recall ever seeing a henka from him and he always fought directly; he had real fighting spirit in his comeback to makuuchi but most of all had a joy and humour that is so disarming and refreshing in a sport where its participants are usually quite reticent or rather po-faced. He was definitely a bright spot in sumo. 

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Anyone notice that Chiyosenshi (who missed Hatsu AND Haru) is still ranked at Jonidan 81?  I understand that the COVID-related absence of Kokonoe-beya from Hatsu basho meant he kept his rank on the Haru banzuke.  But why would he have kept it for the Natsu banzuke after an absence in Haru as well?  Long COVID?  Any news on this situation?

 

 

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Ichinojo remained at M6W despite 7-8 last time, that must be the first time in a long while that a maegashira has retained the same rank despite make-koshi.

 

Swami

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Not to mention that in addition to Ichinojo, Kiribayama, Myogiryu, and Tochinoshin all remained at the same rank this time.

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5 hours ago, Swami said:

Ichinojo remained at M6W despite 7-8 last time, that must be the first time in a long while that a maegashira has retained the same rank despite make-koshi.

 

Swami

Tochinoshin is also at his same rank iirc

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The disappearance of one sanyaku slot actually made that a net promotion for those guys.

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On 25/04/2021 at 23:34, Kintamayama said:

It just dawned on me that there actually is a new kosho system in place. Injured? Tired? Don't want to go kyujo for fear of losing your rank? No problem! Test positive for the virus. There's the kosho. Genius.

Come to think of it, you don't even have to test positive yourself.  Just arrange for someone else in your stable to test positive.  

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Aoiyama once again the top-ranking non-Japanese or Mongolian rikishi. (Yushowinner...)

Hakuho is like the Undertaker, we get a special appearance hopefully now and then, but who knows if/when he will be there. 

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2 hours ago, Highway said:

Aoiyama once again the top-ranking non-Japanese or Mongolian rikishi. 

Looking at the db for "all foreigners", active rikishi

Mongolian 21

Other 6: Kaisei (Brazil), Aoiyama (Bulgaria), Furanshisu (Philippines), Roga (listed as Mongolian and Russian), Shishi (Ukraine), Tochinoshin (Georgia).

Will Roga and/or Shishi be the last ever non-Mongolian foreigner to reach sekitori?

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1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

Looking at the db for "all foreigners", active rikishi

Mongolian 21

Other 6: Kaisei (Brazil), Aoiyama (Bulgaria), Furanshisu (Philippines), Roga (listed as Mongolian and Russian), Shishi (Ukraine), Tochinoshin (Georgia).

Will Roga and/or Shishi be the last ever non-Mongolian foreigner to reach sekitori?

Back in 2011, there were 19 foreign wrestlers in the Top Division (i.e., 45%).  Now we are down to 10 (i.e., 24%).  The trend doesn't bode well for foreigners in oozumo.  And as you point out, non-Mongolian foreigners are in the minority among minorities.

While it doesn't have the same ring as "never say never", I want to say: "never say last".  

The one foreigner per stable policy seems to be discouraging the recruitment of foreigners, especially non-Mongolian ones.  I feel that the presence of foreigners in the sport is a definite plus.  It even helps make oozumo a little more relevant for the younger generation of Japanese, or so I tell myself.

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10 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

The one foreigner per stable policy seems to be discouraging the recruitment of foreigners, especially non-Mongolian ones.

I don't think that Kakuryu, who entered the sport as a fifteen-year-old foreign kid with no wrestling background, would find a place in a heya in 2021.

Edited by Tigerboy1966
clarify
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There's a good university prospect from Kazakhstan with an SdTD qualification, who wanted to turn pro and graduated last year, but I've heard nothing of him since. He was in the same year as already pro SdTD starters Nishikawa and Kanno (both of whom he beat), and current Naruto 'apprentice' Delgerbayar. My hope is that he's getting his stable finalized or is doing an under the radar apprenticeship -- he would be a nice addition to ozumo and add some diversity.

Edited by Katooshu

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7 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:
18 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

The one foreigner per stable policy seems to be discouraging the recruitment of foreigners, especially non-Mongolian ones.

I don't think that Kakuryu, who entered the sport as a fifteen-year-old foreign kid with no wrestling background, would find a place in a heya in 2021.

Nor Hakuho, for that matter. That said, it's a bit more complex than simply "one foreigner per stable bad because great prospects go unnoticed and Hakuho/Kakuryu wouldn't have made it in".

The first thing is to recognise that both of them are already massive anomalies amongst all rikishi by virtue of making yokozuna, never mind Hakuho's GOAT status, so it's difficult to draw many lessons from their trajectory. Of all the 31 first generation Mongolians up to Feb 2002 (the change in rule and coincidentally, making Kakuryu the last Mongolian rikishi who entered before the rule change), we have 4 yokozuna, 2 sekiwake (Asasekiryu and Kyokutenho), 2 komusubi (Kyokushuzan and Hakuba), 4 maegashira (Koryu, Shotenro, Mokonami, Ryuo), 4 juryo (Hoshihikari, Daiyubu, Sensho, Oniarashi), and 15 non-sekitori. Imbalance at the top end aside (which can be put down to a combination of genes, talent, and the motivated foreigner trope), that shakes out remarkably reasonably on how a banzuke constructed entirely of Mongolians would look like.

And other than the bumper Oshima crop, it's interesting to note that only two stables out of the 15 or so (numbers a bit off because the DB records last heya rather than first) who recruited two or more Mongolians had two Mongolian sekitori out of this first 31: Miyagino and Takasago. So if the non-sekitori in the pair of Mongolians from the other stables hadn't been recruited if the one-foreigner rule had hypothetically been in place then, they were arguably no loss to ozumo in the grand scheme of things - except possibly insofar as their influence on their more illustrious stablemate goes, if Miyagino and Takasago's examples are anything to go by.

A little diversion here looking at hatsu dohyo dates: Oshima was the only heya that recruited multiple Mongolians at one go, and they did it super early in 1992, so Oshima was hardly the proximate cause for the rule (although I vaguely remember that they did cause a little consternation at the time which may or may not have resulted in some consensus on not recruiting foreigners). Three of the six also retired within two years of joining, leaving only Kyokushuzan, Kyokutenzan, and Kyokutenho behind by September 1993. So within two years, Oshima's grand experiment had arguably half stalled and Oshima would hardly have been a lightning rod by virtue of the presence of a large Mongolian contingent; the only thing that would have lingered is the memory of having recruited 6 at one go.

If Mongolians were indeed the motivating factor (which without a count of all foreign rikishi cannot be absolutely ascertained), then what seems to have been the cause would have been a noticeable trend in 2000 and 2001 of many stables recruiting a pair of Mongolian rikishi at or around the same time, presumably so they would be a little less lonely with a fellow Mongolian: Hakkaku, Isegahama, Magaki, Shikihide all did it, and if you count within a basho or two of each other, you also add Shibatayama and Tatsunami to the list. 

The next question is whether there are other factors in play. I've often heard it said that theoretically, any Japanese chap can turn up at a heya and as long as he passes the shindeshi kensa, can sign up for a life as a rikishi, whereas foreigners are limited by both the one foreigner rule and their ability to blend into a Japanese communal environment, effectively restricting entry to foreigners who have spent significant time in Japan and are a promising prospect. But I'd say a vast majority of the deshi I see being recruited in the thread that keeps track of recruitments have considerable physical advantages if not sumo experience outright. Shikihide is the only stable that still retains a reputation for really taking all comers, and I don't know how much of that reputation vs reality is thanks to Shonanzakura's holding up of the bum end of the banzuke. So in practice, the number of foreigners would be pre-limited by those who have sumo experience, same as with native Japanese anyway, and while it does occasionally cause some squeaky bum time for the slot, I'm not sure that the foreigner limit is that much more responsible than the "has sumo" factor.

The last is that the rule seems to be getting circumvented with the trend of haafu rikishi like Hagiwara or rikishi who've otherwise spent almost their whole lives in Japan, like Kirameki and Hokuseiho, alongside the fact that few countries are in that bad an economic state compared to Japan that moving to become a rikishi is a much more appealing prospect than anything else. If more and more foreigners serious enough about sumo to live for a significant time in Japan can avail themselves of that loophole, then that brings us back full circle where some stables conceivably could take a gamble on a random starry-eyed scrawny foreign kid who turns up on their doorstep after sending a letter professing their love for ozumo - if they are still willing to take in such candidates in the first place whatever their nationality. After all, if nothing else, they'll already have some of the shin for sumo, and just need to develop gi and tai.

Edited by Seiyashi
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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Shikihide is the only stable that still retains a reputation for really taking all comers, and I don't know how much of that reputation vs reality is thanks to Shonanzakura's holding up of the bum end of the banzuke.

A quick trip through the db tells me that there have been 63 rikishi from that heya since the modern era.  Some highlights:

2 are still active in their 40s

Shonanzakura (ex-Hattorizakura) is becoming a grizzled veteran of the heya, with 11 of the 20 active wrestlers entering after him

The heya has brought in 3 foreigners in its history: Furanishi from the Philippines (active, HD 3/2016), and Sensho and Taiga from Mongolia (HD 3/2001).

Sensho spent two one-and-dones at Juryo 14, and is the only rikishi ever to reach sekitori from the heya.

Of the other 62, 8 have topped out at Makushita, 14 at Sandanme, 33 at Jonidan, and 7 at Jonokuchi.

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8 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

(numbers a bit off because the DB records last heya rather than first)

That can be worked around.

Quote

(although I vaguely remember that [Oshima's six Mongolians] did cause a little consternation at the time which may or may not have resulted in some consensus on not recruiting foreigners).

That's what happened, yes.


Anyway, I don't believe the one-foreigner rule change was really intended to limit anything in particular, given that it expanded the available slots over the previous two-per-heya rule which was additionally capped at 40 foreigners altogether. AFAIK it was primarily done because of a growing feeling that having multiple foreigners in a stable - often from the same country - was a hindrance to their integration.

 

8 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

The last is that the rule seems to be getting circumvented with the trend of haafu rikishi like Hagiwara or rikishi who've otherwise spent almost their whole lives in Japan, like Kirameki and Hokuseiho, alongside the fact that few countries are in that bad an economic state compared to Japan that moving to become a rikishi is a much more appealing prospect than anything else. If more and more foreigners serious enough about sumo to live for a significant time in Japan can avail themselves of that loophole, then that brings us back full circle where some stables conceivably could take a gamble on a random starry-eyed scrawny foreign kid who turns up on their doorstep after sending a letter professing their love for ozumo - if they are still willing to take in such candidates in the first place whatever their nationality. After all, if nothing else, they'll already have some of the shin for sumo, and just need to develop gi and tai.

I don't understand what "loophole" you're seeing here. It's hardly within the power of an enthusiastic foreigner to will himself a Japanese parent or a move to Japan as a child many years earlier. The rule isn't being circumvented by the guys you've mentioned since it was never intended to restrict such guys from joining in the first place.

Edited by Asashosakari
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3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

That can be worked around.

That's what happened, yes.


Anyway, I don't believe the one-foreigner rule change was really intended to limit anything in particular, given that it expanded the available slots over the previous two-per-heya rule which was additionally capped at 40 foreigners altogether. AFAIK it was primarily done because of a growing feeling that having multiple foreigners in a stable - often from the same country - was a hindrance to their integration.

 

I don't understand what "loophole" you're seeing here. It's hardly within the power of an enthusiastic foreigner to will himself a Japanese parent or a move to Japan as a child many years earlier. The rule isn't being circumvented by the guys you've mentioned since it was never intended to restrict such guys from joining in the first place.

I've got to side with @Asashosakari here. Moving from Turkey to Japan, then marrying a local girl so you can sneak in a hafu son as a rikishi seems pretty "4-D chess" to me.  Although, they sent him to college to make him seem more palatable, and maybe the big giveaway: he's got the same name as Kisenosato.

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5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I've got to side with @Asashosakari here. Moving from Turkey to Japan, then marrying a local girl so you can sneak in a hafu son as a rikishi seems pretty "4-D chess" to me.  Although, they sent him to college to make him seem more palatable, and maybe the big giveaway: he's got the same name as Kisenosato.

Yeah, when you put it that way I guess it sounds really stupid.

I wonder what the opinion of the NSK bigwigs on Kirameki and Hokuseiho is. We can see a distinction between them and your usual foreigners, but is that what the NSK also thinks?

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeah, when you put it that way I guess it sounds really stupid.

I wonder what the opinion of the NSK bigwigs on Kirameki and Hokuseiho is. We can see a distinction between them and your usual foreigners, but is that what the NSK also thinks?

What about other "haafus" like Mitakeumi and Takayasu?

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Not a single Juryo rikishi at his highest rank? Oh my..

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6 hours ago, Benihana said:

What about other "haafus" like Mitakeumi and Takayasu?

Indeed. Beyond that, it's not like the presence of Japanese-born rikishi who are half or fully not ethnically Japanese is something new - it's just that it was almost exclusively Korean ancestry that was involved until the last couple of decades and it was very much kept on the down low. Potential behind-the-scenes discrimination notwithstanding, there's never been anything official to keep such rikishi out of sumo, at least to my knowledge.

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