Ichidai toshiyori no more?

[Kintamayama 44,349]

In a 50 page report submitted by Mr. Yamauchi of yet another committee (A Committee of Experts Who Discuss the Inheritance and Development of Sumo Wrestling,. the one with Oh), it advises the Kyokai to better instruct all foreign rikishi of the importance of sumo and its traditions. But hidden inside not so subtly is the recommendation to discontinue the Ichidai toshiyori status. "We're not asking to abolish it, since the rule never existed.." said Mr. Yamauchi. It was first given to Taihou in 1969, allowing him to use his shikona and open a heya and recruit guys until he retires, when the name disappears. Now the kyokai is being asked to discontinue this. Direct result if this happens - Hakuhou doesn't get to use his name and open a Hakuhou-beya. Maybe THAT's the reason we were all looking for for him acquiring Magaki.

Now, I never ever us the  x-word, but this sure smacks of it quite brightly.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Ryoshishokunin 261]

There are some things I don't miss about living in Japan.  

[Akinomaki 39,763]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

In a 50 page report submitted by Mr. Yamauchi of yet another committee (A Committee of Experts Who Discuss the Inheritance and Development of Sumo Wrestling,. the one with Oh), it advises the Kyokai to better instruct all foreign rikishi of the importance of sumo and its traditions. But hidden inside not so subtly is the recommendation to discontinue the Ichidai toshiyori status. "We're not asking to abolish it, since the rule never existed.." said Mr. Yamauchi. It was first given to Taihou in 1969, allowing him to use his shikona and open a heya and recruit guys until he retires, when the name disappears. Now the kyokai is being asked to discontinue this. Direct result if this happens - Hakuhou doesn't get to use his name and open a Hakuhou-beya. Maybe THAT's the reason we were all looking for for him acquiring Magaki.

Now, I never ever us the  x-word, but this sure smacks of it quite brightly.

The council stated that the practice of granting an ichidai toshiyori in itself is against the tradition of ozumo, they make it look like it contradicts the spirit of Japanese culture.

"It means the sumo style of the power and technique of that yokozuna is not handed down with the heya name to posterity. This is unparalleled in other Japanese performing arts, inconsistent with the ozumo tradition of inheritance from the shisho by the deshi, a so to speak grotesque qualification."

And they argued that one can find nothing that shows a meaning of the existence of the ichidai toshiyori practice.

Hakkaku wants to discuss it in the rijikai.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202104190000460.html

Edited April 19, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Mightyduck 67]

The interesting part, not that we are ever likely to hear the truth, will be how Hakuho reacts to this. Does he shrug it off, or view it as a personal insult?

[nagora 88]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

It was first given to Taihou in 1969, allowing him to use his shikona and open a heya and recruit guys until he retires, when the name disappears.

How often has it been given since then?

[ScottyJoyJrBebe 97]

3 minutes ago, nagora said:

How often has it been given since then?

-Kitanoumi (24)

-Chiyonofuji (31) *Declined Offer

-Takanohana (22)

[dada78641 884]

34 minutes ago, Mightyduck said:

The interesting part, not that we are ever likely to hear the truth, will be how Hakuho reacts to this. Does he shrug it off, or view it as a personal insult?

Frankly, I don't see how you can't see it as a personal insult. What other reason could they have for bringing this up at precisely this moment, right as he is about to retire? Like is anyone supposed to believe it's pure coincidence they decided to go "well, ACTUALLY," exactly now? Frankly, it's scandalous.

edit: for me, if you want to abolish the ichidai toshiyori system (and don't even tell me you can't "abolish" it because it "never existed in the first place", it's been granted before and so it exists), the only appropriate thing to do is to give it to Hakuho and then say "we're now stopping this practice for good". You don't pull the rug from under someone at the last minute.

Edited April 19, 2021 by dada78641

[Mightyduck 67]

29 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Frankly, I don't see how you can't see it as a personal insult. What other reason could they have for bringing this up at precisely this moment, right as he is about to retire? Like is anyone supposed to believe it's pure coincidence they decided to go "well, ACTUALLY," exactly now? Frankly, it's scandalous.

edit: for me, if you want to abolish the ichidai toshiyori system (and don't even tell me you can't "abolish" it because it "never existed in the first place", it's been granted before and so it exists), the only appropriate thing to do is to give it to Hakuho and then say "we're now stopping this practice for good". You don't pull the rug from under someone at the last minute.

You make a very good point about timing. I wonder if it either is or was being used as leverage for him to retire. Basically retire now before we hold this meeting and we can still grant it. Or if it was being used as a stick to get him to retire in January, he's refused and they've followed through. They have perhaps underestimated the weight of the family connection to the Olympics for Hakuho. 

[pricklypomegranate 730]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Hakkaku wants to discuss it in the rijikai.

I sincerely hope that this talk isn't just parroting and reporting what the council recommended, but an actual discussion about it. I hope Hakkaku won't listen to any of such nonsense. As a sumo fan, I can hardly stress enough how discouraging and heartbreaking it is to see rikishi treated like this and the sport being handled in such a careless way. Hakuho has gone above and beyond to give what someone or predecessors at his rank have sacrified. He's given so much of his time, his money, his influence, his body and most importantly his entire soul to the sport and doesn't even get so much as a second glance. And with regard to the ichidai toshiyori not being in writing, since when were the sumo traditions ever in writing. There is a rulebook, but the traditions are acquired and repeated visually and orally. This paltry excuse of things not being black-and-white is, to an admittedly ignorant foreigner, precisely what's wrong with some Japanese people's understanding of sumo. The material is privileged about all else. You may say the right words, clap at the right time, stick to the approved program, yet the basic core - the shin, the dedication, passion, and most importantly genuine sincerity is missing, and my, is it a big hole. The council, and some (in my opinion, misguided) Japanese think that foreigners do not grasp sumo, yet their own understanding is superficial and puerile. You can see it in some of the Kyokai, the YDC, the council and some rikishi. I am not saying that Hakuho should have been given the ichidai without scrutiny, but he should have at least been considered. Instead, the case is being dismissed before its even gone to court. There's the question of who am I, as an outsider who doesn't have a total understanding of sumo and Japanese culture to comment, and I'm sorry for that, but in my strong opinion, their so-called "efforts" to save the sport are really just killing it. If Hakuho is denied of his ichidai wrongfully, this spat might not just end here. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Akinomaki 39,763]

4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

"It means the sumo style of the power and technique of that yokozuna is not handed down with the heya name to posterity. This is unparalleled in other Japanese performing arts, inconsistent with the ozumo tradition of inheritance from the shisho by the deshi, a so to speak grotesque qualification."

What makes them hypocrites is the fact that the Taiho dojo still exists, only the heya name has changed, like with many other heya, and Kitanoumi-beya is now Yamahibiki-beya, but everything there preserves the tradition of Kitanoumi.

A later article tells that after the ichidai toshiyori heya closed, the rikishi had to change to a new heya, which was only true for Takanohana, who in my opinion was barely borderline anyhow in deserving to get that status.

Apparently no member of the council had a deeper understanding of sumo.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Muhomatsu 224]

I actually thought they should embrace the ichidai-toshiyori as a way to gradually expand the amount of Kabu over time.  Each qualifying dai-yokozuna could refuse (like Chiyonofuji) - but if accepted, the name would become a regular Kabu that can be sold or inherited like any other.  It is not like this proposal would dramatically increase the amount of Kabu - either at onset or even over decades - but it would preserve the history of sumo's best and brightest by enshrining them with a permanent kabu name. 

While the rest of the world is moving away from direct instances of racism and even away from indirect, systemic forms - here we have Japan (again) overtly embracing it. It is fairly sad, this resistance to growth and change and strict obedience to made-up social norms.  How old is sumo?  How old is the official rank of yokozuna compared to that? When was the current list of Kabu finalized?  These "traditions" of yokozuna and the list of kabu are not really traditions at all - they are made up in the past century - much like ichidai status.  The whole thing is very suspect - and I agree - this council has no real understanding of sumo.  My reaction to this report is to tell Oh and his council to take an "intentional walk" off a short pier.   

 

[Ryoshishokunin 261]

45 minutes ago, Muhomatsu said:

When was the current list of Kabu finalized? 

Not that long ago.  Though partly by deletion after the T+O merger, as well as the loss of the non-rikishi shares.
The whole kabu system makes me mad, but 'these are the names and they shall be the names for eternity' part of it is particularly annoying, given that many of the kabu go through five hands between 'serious' holders of the name with loan-outs and so on, and a lot of the retirees also go through a bunch of names before getting sorted.  Is the Sanoyama name really more worthy of saving forever than Hakuho or Taiho? 

[Kintamayama 44,349]

Amidst all the commotion, there were also some other suggestions. The interesting one was brought up by actress Misako Konno, calling it the "Rikishi First" proposal.. "We have to think of a new kosho system that is more fitting for the Reiwa era," she suggested.

 

As for the Hakuhou situation, I think he was told specifically and unofficially that an IT is off the table for him, and he will live with that, because he probably saw it coming.  44 yushos and breaking all records for the unforeseeable future is one thing, but a foreigner getting the IT was a bit too much, I gather. That is the only logical explanation I can think of regarding his securing the Magaki name so quickly and out of the blue.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Akinomaki 39,763]

16 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

That is the only logical explanation I can think of regarding his securing the Magaki name so quickly and out of the blue.

So far he is only in the process of securing Magaki, negotiations could still fail. I think some tabloid wrote about doubts that he actually gets it.

[Yubinhaad 11,545]

19 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

As for the Hakuhou situation, I think he was told specifically and unofficially that an IT is off the table for him, and he will live with that, because he probably saw it coming.  44 yushos and breaking all records for the unforeseeable future is one thing, but a foreigner getting the IT was a bit too much, I gather. That is the only logical explanation I can think of regarding his securing the Magaki name so quickly and out of the blue.

The five-year temporary toshiyori would have been available to Hakuho just as it was to Kakuryu a month ago. I expect his attempted acquisition of Magaki (not sure it's officially done yet) is so that Miyagino can stay on for a consultancy after he turns 65, with Hakuho succeeding to Miyagino-beya which is what I personally hope to see happen.

[Kintamayama 44,349]

7 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

The five-year temporary toshiyori would have been available to Hakuho just as it was to Kakuryu a month ago. I expect his attempted acquisition of Magaki (not sure it's officially done yet) is so that Miyagino can stay on for a consultancy after he turns 65, with Hakuho succeeding to Miyagino-beya which is what I personally hope to see happen.

I agree, just saying he knew the IT was not happening.

[Gurowake 3,915]

3 hours ago, Muhomatsu said:

I actually thought they should embrace the ichidai-toshiyori as a way to gradually expand the amount of Kabu over time.  Each qualifying dai-yokozuna could refuse (like Chiyonofuji) - but if accepted, the name would become a regular Kabu that can be sold or inherited like any other.

Well, they'd have to call it something other than "ichidai", with that meaning "one generation".

[Kishinoyama 582]

How convenient the timing of this "recommendation".... 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Kishinoyama
Added exclamation marks.

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

As much as this is disappointing to hear, on the flip side I have to play devils advocate and say that Hakuho himself did give the NSK and this “committee” the ammo to deny him the honor as such. Various things he did out of order, his behavior at times whether it was on or off the dohyo and his support for Takanohana is another reason too. And they disgracefully scapegoating him because of the foreigner concept. It’s a wonder I don’t live in Japan and abide by Japanese society anymore

[Seiyashi 4,071]

4 hours ago, Muhomatsu said:

I actually thought they should embrace the ichidai-toshiyori as a way to gradually expand the amount of Kabu over time. 

The rules lawyer in me finds this actually a convenient loophole against the recommendation. So if the problem with the ichidai-toshiyori is the lack of succession, fix it by making ichidai-toshiyori-class yokozuna shikona heritable as new kabu! Problem solved.

Sadly, I don't think the board will have the unanimity to do that, because it would be the equivalent of sticking a middle finger to the committee.

[dada78641 884]

It's just such a kick in the face to someone who has given so much to the world of sumo. But they're not even just straight up telling him he lacks the "hinkaku" or whatever. They've made up an absolutely transparent excuse, basically conveniently disallowing him the ichidai toshiyori on a technicality. A technicality they happened to think of literally just before it was Hakuho's turn.

I've seen people on Twitter talking about this from the perspective of whether or not Hakuho specifically "deserves" the ichidai toshiyori based on how he's occasionally had the unsightly outburst or henka win, but that's really not even the point, and people arguing on that basis are missing what's going on.

Because they know that they can't really argue with a straight face that he's personally undeserving of the honor, they've concocted up this filthy excuse about how the concept "never really existed in the first place". They're completely circumventing any chance of a discussion of whether he's worth it, because they know they can't win that, and then they'd have tough questions to answer about why specifically Hakuho alone has to be denied this honor and what's so different about him compared to the other four. They know they have to put the knife in his back rather than in his chest.

Well, it's going on the record, and maybe sometime in the future people will be able to look back and honestly acknowledge exactly what this was.

[Gurowake 3,915]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Sadly, I don't think the board will have the unanimity to do that, because it would be the equivalent of sticking a middle finger to the committee.

I don't know what operating agreement the NSK operates under with respect to new shareholders, but I suspect it might not just require the board's approval, but the approval of all the shareholders. Perhaps only a majority, but generally shareholders have to approve their ownership being diluted.  With Ichidai toshiyori, the lack of permanence wouldn't require such approval.  Of course, I'm probably viewing this way too much from a Western business perspective, when the organization of the NSK is probably entirely unlike any Western organization type.  Calling the kabu shares of stock might be a gross mistranslation in that sense.

[Dapeng 232]

Absurd. If Hakuho is a Japanese by birth-right instead of being a naturalized one, will they try deny him IT? Instead, they will probably recommend to make the name "Hakuho" a permanent toshiyori name!

[ryafuji 807]

An obvious sticking of two fingers up to Hakuho, but it shouldn't have too much practical effect on his future plans. Miyagino is retiring in a couple of years and he could just take over that heya and train his own rikishi. 

[Asashosakari 18,784]

Quick reminder: The idea of giving ichidai-toshiyori status to particularly prominent rikishi actually dates back to 1941, when it was offered to all yokozuna. That iteration lasted less than two years before they reversed course again. (The last kabu thus created lapsed in 1952.) The timing of the committee's proposal is highly suspect, of course, but the notion that ichidai-toshiyori is something that doesn't actually belong in sumo is not new.

Edit: And actually, they did it again in 1957, also for all yokozuna, and that attempt was discontinued after just two years, too.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Asashosakari