Natsu basho 2021

[Seiyashi 4,087]

19 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

If Enho had pulled out of this tournament on Day 2, when Ura wrenched his right arm (note too that he was already sporting an ankle injury), then chances would have been, that he would have drop all the way out of the salaried Juryo Division.  

By staying in the tournament, he has not only been able to secure four wins...

Very well said overall. For sure, his fighting spirit is to be admired, and if he manages to pull out a KK this basho after all, it's a pity that sansho aren't given in juryo.

I do hope however that fighting on half his limbs is not more dangerous to his physical well-being than it is normally, though. As it is, he's one bad fall away from being crushed like Mainoumi is; if he's lacking the agility thanks to injuries that increases his risk of incurring exactly such an injury.

[Koorifuu 1,000]

I feel like the H2H record between Kotoeko and Ichinojo is one of the least surprising ones of the last decade.

[Karasukurai 166]

I was very glad to see Akua get up OK after hitting the edge of the doyho with his lower back and Tsurugisho on him too. I know he's a giant of a man, but I did feel sorry for Terunofuji losing in that way.

[ryafuji 814]

I thought hair-pulling (if it was even that, looked more like entanglement to me) had to be intentional to count as a disqualification. Clearly on today's evidence I was mistaken.

[Seiyashi 4,087]

1 minute ago, ryafuji said:

I thought hair-pulling (if it was even that, looked more like entanglement to me) had to be intentional to count as a disqualification. Clearly on today's evidence I was mistaken.

The problem is you can almost never prove intent after the fact for something like this; which dolt of a rikishi is going to confess to intentionally pulling his opponent's hair? Much simpler to make it by the peril of the rikishi trying to manhandle his opponent's head.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Seiyashi

[ryafuji 814]

2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The problem is you can almost never prove intent after the fact for something like this; which dolt of a rikishi is going to confess to intentionally pulling his opponent's hair? Much simpler to make it by the peril of the rikishi trying to manhandle his opponent's head.

There should at least be something that actually has an affect on the opponent.  Myogiryu didn't even feel anything - “I had no sensation of that occurring,”

[Seiyashi 4,087]

2 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

7 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The problem is you can almost never prove intent after the fact for something like this; which dolt of a rikishi is going to confess to intentionally pulling his opponent's hair? Much simpler to make it by the peril of the rikishi trying to manhandle his opponent's head.

There should at least be something that actually has an affect on the opponent.  Myogiryu didn't even feel anything - “I had no sensation of that occurring,”

That's true.

But then again, while I generally have much respect for the integrity of rikishi, that opens the door to something akin to diving in football, doesn't it? Headbutt the opponent's hand and pray your mage gets entangled. 

Jokes aside, I think Eikokurai already put it best previously though. Effect or not, just don't do it. And while it ruins Terunofuji's zensho, it's not immediately fatal to his chances at a yusho; he still can run away with it. It would have been far worse if this had really been a title deciding bout.

[Benihana 1,929]

A hair pull is a hair pull, is a hair pull. Sometimes they see it, sometimes they don't. Was it intentional? Had it any influence on the outcome of the bout? It doesn't matter, it's a hair pull. Try to argue with a cop, if 200km/h in a 30km/h zone in front of a school is really worth a ticket, because it's sunday and nobody is around you could have endangered. Only a corrupt cop would let you go.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Benihana

[ryafuji 814]

1 minute ago, Benihana said:

A hair pull is a hair pull, is a hair pull.

No, not always, sometimes it's an accidental entanglement and they have decided not to overturn the result after a mono-ii.

[Faustonowaka 129]

Does hansoku equal a gunbai sashi-chigai for the (tate) gyoji?

[Benihana 1,929]

Just now, ryafuji said:

No, not always, sometimes it's an accidental entanglement and they have decided not to overturn the result after a mono-ii.

Yes, you are correct and i have to correct myself. I remember an occasion, when rikishi A tried to pull his hand away from rikishi Bs head and got entangled. That's 100% recognisable as accident, because there was no grabbing movement. Let's call this a "passive hansoku". In this case now, Terunofuji pushed Myogiryu's head down, his hand around the mage, not the neck. Was it an accident? In favour for Terunofuji, we don't know, but it was an "active hansoku".

[Eikokurai 3,437]

27 minutes ago, Faustonowaka said:

Does hansoku equal a gunbai sashi-chigai for the (tate) gyoji?

Good question. Perhaps technically, but it’s my understanding that gyoji can’t decide a bout by calling hansoku themselves; hansoku are decided after mono-ii. That being the case—if it is the case—the gyoji would make his declaration based on the normal course of sumo, i.e. first to go down or out loses. I think the gyoji can sleep easy tonight. He did his job. :)

[Katooshu 3,229]

Well, basho got more interesting, but I hate to see it due to a loss like that....

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

25 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Well, basho got more interesting, but I hate to see it due to a loss like that....

...and due to another unexpected rank-and-filer as opponent.

Edit: Which arguably might have made it less interesting.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Jakusotsu

[Katooshu 3,229]

Onosho is a tough one for him though, 4-1 H2H and wins over Teru in the last 2 basho.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Katooshu

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

10 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Onosho is a tough one for him though, 4-1 H2H and wins over Teru in the last 2 basho.

Takayasu had even won the last 4, and see what happened.

yet another edit: ....and Takayasu offered much more hair than Myogiryu did.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Jakusotsu

[Katooshu 3,229]

True, but I think Onosho offers Teru more trouble than most high ranked opponents do. Even on yusho form last tournament Teru still didn't beat him. Among opponents Teru could face, he's right up there with any of them in terms of how much trouble he gives the big man. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Katooshu

[dada78641 884]

I think Terunofuji got robbed. What he did was closer to pushing his head down than pulling his hair, and Myogiryu was already basically dead weight with Terunofuji in an overwhelmingly favorable position. It's inconceivable to me that he wouldn't have lost the match either way. Even if you consider it problematic, it certainly didn't look intentional to me.

But I guess today was one of those days when suddenly our understanding of how the judges operate gets thrown out of wack, as it periodically does.

[Gernobono 466]

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Enho is defying our fears and fighting through his injuries

do we have any evidence, he hurt his elbow, but him nursing the elbow after the bout against ura (and the  pics of the kotenage)

[Sue 508]

The Asanoyama scandal (sob) means that Takayasu picks up a fusensho tomorrow, putting him on 8 wins with 3 remaining, and he's already faced the other three Ozeki. He went 10-5 last basho; this could set him up well for making this basho leg 2 of a hypothetical Ozeki (re)run. But he'd have to win two, or better yet all, of those remaining three matches.

...and then go 12-3 or better in July, which is a taller order.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Sue

[Amamaniac 2,079]

1 hour ago, Gernobono said:

do we have any evidence, he hurt his elbow, but him nursing the elbow after the bout against ura (and the  pics of the kotenage)

Well, we could add to that list his apparent need to tape said elbow and wear a "supporter" on that elbow when he is fighting.  Those things suggest that he now (unlike before the incident with Ura) requires extra protection.  

But I don't think the details of his post bout medical examination were shared.  The only thing that I heard in the press was Enho saying that he heard a snap when his arm was wrenched in the Ura bout.

I doubt that he is faking injury.  But we, or at least I, don't know the full extent of it.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Dapeng 235]

1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

I think Terunofuji got robbed. What he did was closer to pushing his head down than pulling his hair, and Myogiryu was already basically dead weight with Terunofuji in an overwhelmingly favorable position. It's inconceivable to me that he wouldn't have lost the match either way. Even if you consider it problematic, it certainly didn't look intentional to me.

But I guess today was one of those days when suddenly our understanding of how the judges operate gets thrown out of wack, as it periodically does.

Partially agree. The suspected hair-pull had nothing to do with the result of this bout and was unintentional. But if a hair-pull is confirmed or highly suspected, it should be judged as a loss to the one who did it because hair-pull is very dangerous. 

[Dapeng 235]

10 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Maybe the shimpan heard about the Asanoyama scandal and thought they’d distract us with a kinjite/hansoku outrage instead.

Shocked to know. He will be forced to sit out at lease three bashos and will probably get demoted to juryo when coming back. A forced retirement is also possible. Very sorry for him.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

10 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

But if a hair-pull is confirmed or highly suspected, it should be judged as a loss to the one who did it because hair-pull is very dangerous. 

Interesting. I always considered the strict application of that rule a mere trifle and mostly ridiculous, but you may have a point there. On the other hand, shouldn't a foul only be called when at least it *looks* dangerous and not just like a gentle brush?

[Seiyashi 4,087]

1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

19 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

But if a hair-pull is confirmed or highly suspected, it should be judged as a loss to the one who did it because hair-pull is very dangerous. 

Interesting. I always considered the strict application of that rule a mere trifle and mostly ridiculous, but you may have a point there. On the other hand, shouldn't a foul only be called when at least it *looks* dangerous and not just like a gentle brush?

At the risk of splitting, ahem, hairs, that removes the whole point of having fouls in the first place. The point of a foul is to disallow behaviour that has a prejudged increased risk of injury not within the conceptions of the sport. Eikokurai and Benihana have good analogies a couple pages back, but it's no answer to a foul call that you didn't cause harm. The rules are there for a reason and the violation of the rule itself is actionable, not the causing of harm to the opponent.